empeg suck's
Posted by: fox
empeg suck's - 28/08/2000 22:42
no, not really, but i'm very disappointed by the software and the developer support !
i pay'd allot of money for something with a very high, 'yes i wanna support this' and 'o there's linux on it cool', factor
but what if got is a peace of great hardware with an absolute minimalistic software. and most disappointed i'm from the developer version ! this is not developer ! no editor no telnetd ftpd or something else on the mark II which has an ethernet interface ! i mean there’s nothing than the possibility to stop the player.
hey we are not all hardware,strongARMindeepth,c++,debian crack's out here, but here are people whic can program some perl or write some great cgi's or have an good idea about php ot maybe they wanna set up a zope server on the empeg.
please empeg people, give us a usable developper image ! so we can make some great stuff on you box.
cheers
andreas
Posted by: alear
empeg rock's - 28/08/2000 23:00
With a subject title like that you'd better run.....fast!
Sounds like you want a new computer. Try Dell. The rest of us bought an MP3 player.
You are asking for what myself and others are asking for in general. We would like to see more information so we can do cool things with the empeg. However, I use my empeg to listen to music in my car and sometimes at my office. Doing anything else with it is a bonus. Give it some time. The expansion of sofware and hardware add-ons will come soon. You must remember that empeg has been working hard to put out the mark 2. Now that it is out, they can put a little more effort into helping the development process.
Alex Lear
Posted by: rjlov
Re: empeg suck's - 28/08/2000 23:16
I think that should be "empegs suck" or "empeg sucks", but not "empeg suck's".
hey we are not all hardware,strongARMindeepth,c++,debian crack's out here
I'm not meaning to be rude here, but programming embedded systems isn't for everybody. However, I'm living proof that you can do interesting and useful stuff on the empeg with the barest of knowledge about any of the topics you mention.
In my opinion, the guys at empeg are providing much more than they need to, given they are essentially selling a car audio product. One could ask that if you can't bootstrap yourself from the developer image to where you want to be (with Verement's site and this BBS for guidance) then do you really want to be mucking around and generally doing potentially nasty things to your system?
I don't.
Richard.
Posted by: drakino
Re: empeg suck's - 28/08/2000 23:23
I found the developer image on my MK 1 to be quite useful. It was small, and allowed me, as a developer to add what I need. I don't want empeg making my .upgrade files bigger because they include worthless things like ftpd, and such. Odds are that I'd want a different daemon, so the additional files would be worthless. The developer imager was ment to allow people interested in adding to the empeg a way into the core, and enough programs to allow a developer to get what they need. Anything beyond that is fluff that is not needed. I don't mean for this to sound harsh, but if you can't add what you want into the empeg on your own, then you need to wait for someone else to write some documentation on what they did. Expecting empeg to go beyond providing an MP3 player is not realistic. It never said on their site that they have to provide users with a developer image that does everything under the sun. And they also never said your paying $1000 or more to get a player, and developer support.
Rereading the above still seems a bit harsh. I don't honestly intend for it to be that way, but I hate to see such a great product being knocked down for not meeting unreasonable demands from the creators.
Posted by: Nils
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 00:19
Ouch, you kicked that holy cow of ours right in the b*tt
:-)
No really, you are relatively new to the board, and if you still stay longer here, you will learn that thise empeg guys do more for us than any other company i bought ( even *much* more expensive toys from ) ...
Saying that the empeg is high priced doesn't hit the jackpot ...
Before i had the empeg i had a Clarion System that was even more expensive for giving me just 10% of the empegs flexiblity & functionality ...
So, bare with us/them, and you'll learn how dedicated those people are. ( remember, they are not SONY or IBM or Microsoft, they are just a bunch of people, a real start-up )
If you really feel mistreated, then sell your empeg and leave us here, still thinking we are in customer supports paradise ...
Nils
P.S. i am saying this, with a big wishlist not yet satisfied, but *some* already are satisfied, where all of the big companies would'nt have even bothered READING my comments, not thinking of furfilling some requests.
P.S. 2 !!
Please also note that i agree 100% on your request/critics to have httpd, samba, ftp & other stuff running in the dev. version, i WANT THAT TOO :-)
I could do this by myself, but i don't have time going back to linux ( my last in depth working with linux was 5 years ago, now its mac & windoze ).
Another solution would be a FAQ that one of you others could provide kindly ...
Posted by: tfabris
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 00:24
That's funny, I thought that the Empeg's software goes way beyond any other MP3 player on the market. I don't see how it can be called minimalistic when its feature set is light years beyond anything else currently available.
And as far as the developer image being stripped-down... tell me, what other dedicated MP3 players' developer images are you comparing it to?
Fox, we here on the BBS are perfectly willing to help you with your player. Some of us can even help you with getting ftp running on the box. Some of us are even willing to back you up on feature suggestions, assuming they're good ones. But please don't flame Empeg just because there's no FTP daemon pre-built into the default developer kernel. It just alienates everyone who would have otherwise wanted to give you a hand.
___________
Tony Fabris
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 04:30
- my computer is ok
- if i only wanna have an mp3 player, there are much cheaper ones !
- i buyed and mp3 car audio player with linux on it for a, let's say: high price. so i can expect a little bit more than only an mp3 player
and.. there was promised more.
but what i see is a mp3 player with some nice graphics when playing a song. but i paid already the full price.
i can also understand that empeg people worked hard on the mark2 but i cannot understand why they give not developpemeont support for NON rocket scientists.
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 04:39
thanks for spell chekcing, english is not my native language
no i also do not think that programming on an embeded system isn't for everybody, but if you do not give other's a chance to write something for the product, then you should bring a finished product to the market (not only the hardware also the software).
again, for this price i can expect more than a plain mp3 player !
i can follow verements site and i am able to but the stuff to the device and i already did nasty thing on it, but...
i wanna have features (which aren't yet here) so i wanna be able to add features myself but this is not easy pssoble with the current developer image, and the described way at veremont's page is not very easy to go. and the the player software is so close that you can add nothing to it, i mean there are many examples out there how to build an open application where you can write add ons for it or change parameters or ...
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 04:44
my opinion is that either i can expect more for the price paid or i can expect some support to add it myself.
i mean for emptool they did it, making the sourcecode open, so other people can write for them the mac version or can add new features.
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 05:01
i mean for the price range and the architecture of the emplode i compare it more to winamp than to a rio
i cannot compare it to other developper images, cause there are no other players around where i can expect this, but from empeg i expected it cause there is allot of talking about other projects, third party add ons and so on.
i know that there are allot of helping hand's on this bbs and i got also allot of really great information, but i'm still disapointet that i have to figure out every little thing in hours and hours.
tell me how long it takes for an linux skilled empeg newbie to change the config so he can leave the player software via menue ?
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 05:15
- i'm not new to the board, i haven readen this board for months, waiting for my empeg, and that's maybe why i expected more, i was reding unused cpu power, tetris, own graphics, features ... but what i have no is a not so bad mp3 player, not more or less
- i think sill that for the features we have at the moment the price is high, the price is not high if you look at the potential the player hardware has.
- at the moment it looks to me like people from empeg liked to have some developpers to build emptool for mac but do not wan't to have people dig in the player(software).
sorry folks, i do not need a mac version, but i like to have a way to delete mp's on the player, i would like to have a volume control driven by the in car noise, no different buttons with the same function, mybe a light on reminder, a wake up reminder, a possibility to see the clock on the display, an http interface to pla or download songs in the office, an way to back up the files stored on the device ....
Posted by: tonyc
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 05:28
The features you mentioned are all good ideas, and I'm sure will all be written in at some point. However, if you're expecting the player source code to be released, or if you're expecting some magical development interface like Perl or Python or something, you might want to sell your Empeg now. Be patient, enjoy your Empeg (which is after all an MP3 player designed to play music in your car) and the hackers will keep making things happen. Look at what has already been written in with just a couple months since the Mk2 was released. It seems like you want to buy a full blown Linux machine for your car, and that's not the driving force (pun) behind the Empeg. IT'S A CAR STEREO COMPONENT FIRST! And a computer second. It just so happens that it's somewhat hackable, and anything that's not there will be there soon.
I am glad this thread started though, because I like to hear differing viewpoints. I'm just trying hard to understand what's so slow and painful about Empeg's development process...
Posted by: Roger
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 05:51
If you raise each of your concerns on the Wish-List section of the board, we will consider them in the same way as we consider other peoples' suggestions.
That is, carefully. We pay attention to everyone's suggestions. Some of them are judged to have enough importance that they get implemented almost immediately. Others strike us as great ideas, but difficult to do within a sensible timescale, based on our other committments. These we put on our internal wish list. They get scheduled at some point in the future.
Other suggestions just don't make any sense (at the current time) to us from a commercial standpoint. These don't get implemented.
If you're concerned about the cost of the player, someone has another posting on here somewhere about how much the equivalent amount of CD changers would cost you.
We'd like other people to help with downloaders for the Mac because we don't have a great deal of experience with the Mac. Other factors millitate against us writing one in house. To this end, we've released the source code (under the GPL) for emptool, in the hope that someone else will take it upon themselves to write other front ends. There's some people currently organising to undertake a KDE (and other) front end. Whether this will extend to a Mac front end remains to be seen, however.
The player software is our major asset from an intellectual property point of view. We won't be releasing the source to it at any point in the near future. Sorry.
As regards your other suggestions, I can only reiterate our committment to listening to all of our customers' suggestions. Some of them get implemented, some don't. Some take a while. Them's the breaks.
Regards,
Roger.
Roger - not necessarily speaking for empeg
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 06:09
i do not expect the source code of the player sofwtware, but i espect a developper image where we can play around a bit i mean with an httpd and some shell script one can do allot of great things, a init script which gives the possibility to let run some other software, a menue structure which gives the possibility to start other applications, such things i expect.
Posted by: muzza
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 06:13
You raise a few good issues here.
- i'm not new to the board, i haven readen this board for months, waiting for my empegsome of us for years
- i think sill that for the features we have at the moment the price is high, the price is not high if you look at the potential the player hardware has.and that is the whole point. This MP3 player has
huge potential. To rant and rave about what it is missing is such a big slap in the face to many of us on this BBS, particularly those of us who have bought the Mk1 and then the Mk2 and lived through the beta sessions and the failed syncs and the rest of it. Talk to
bigjohn about the heartache this thing can give when the software doesn't behave as expected (it was bigjohn with the clone tool probs wasn't it)
most of us have been through so much and there is still so much to come. If you want features, start polls, start campaigns on this BBS. Empeg have said that while they do have a feature agenda, they would implement features if there was enough public support for them (and it fitted in with their ideals)
this box has potential. it has more expansion power than any other player on the market being offered in bulk form, and is actually supported by a bunch of extremely hard working fellas.
As has been said, if you have issues what have you done to get answers before slamming the product?
.......but i like to have a way to delete mp's on the player.........All these things are best on the wish list. have a traul through and see how many of your ideas are unoriginal or could be implemented by what others are offering.
add this thread to 'how to start a flame war FAQ'
Murray 06000047
____________________
Posted by: ClemsonJeep
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 06:14
tell me how long it takes for an linux skilled empeg newbie to change the config so he can leave the player software via menue ?
About 2 minutes.
1) Plug in the serial cable to the empeg and your PC.
2) Start up a communications proggy to access said serial cable
3) Press "q" to drop to shell.
4) type rwm, then rw to mount the partitions read-write.
5) cd /empeg/var
6) echo "[Menu]" >> config.ini
7) echo "Quit=1" >> config.ini
8) type rom, then ro, to mount the partitions read-only.
9) exit the shell and now you have a "quit" option on the main menu which will exit the player for you.
Not too difficult and with about 5 minutes worth of research you would have realized these directions were already posted on the forum elsewhere.
(O|||||O)
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 06:17
but i wanna be a little hacker to, do i get no chance ?
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 06:26
but why they are not here, when can i expect them
or better, how can i help, without spending night's in going through veremonts and many others descriptions to get an environment where you can start learning how to realy help
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 06:36
tahts not true like this !
2) 30mins trying, looking in the handbook and then 30mins on the bbs until you find out that you have to switch off flow control
3) 10min trying around until you mention taht you have to press q[enter]
4) 1hour until you have the information together how the commands work, shure there is everithing on the bbs in it was interesting to read through the threads
20mins to fix broken df
5) again another 1hour on the bbs to find out about config.ini
20mins to find out that there is no editor animore like it seems it was on the mark1
8) ok, luckily i read to some threads and did ro and rom
9) 20mins to find out that neither halt nor reboot nor shutdown will work to get your device in inital state
Posted by: tonyc
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 06:43
Please take no offense to this, but you really sound like you want all the perks of being a hacker without the actual hacking. If you want to learn things about the Empeg, you've got to at the very least be able to search a BBS or a web site. Whining about how hard it is to find information is not going to make you part of the solution. Sites like the Empeg developer's site are helpful, this BBS is helpful, and if you need it spelled out any more than it already is, you're just not much of a hacker, and you bought the wrong MP3 player, sorry...
Posted by: altman
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 07:02
What empeg sells and supports is the player and emplode; we do not (and make it plain that we do not) support developers - we're simply not in that business. There's no way we could give developer support to even 10's of customers and get any work done ourselves.
That said, we provide an image with enough tools to get you started, and we generally will answer techie questions on the unit - this is much more than many companies provide - and anyone already experienced with linux can work out the rest.
If we were selling an evaluation board or development kit then yes, it would be our business to support developers. We don't - we sell a music player. It happens to be capable of a lot more, but don't mistake the empeg for a Redhat linux box with a full toolset: the empeg is an embedded system and as such is cut-down and customised in many ways.
Hugo
Posted by: altman
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 07:10
If we put a httpd on the player, it would take disk space and memory. The player is designed to work with the HDD spun down (ie, no disk access at all except under its own control) - no httpd is designed this way. All spare memory in the empeg is used to cache tracks to give the shock protection - running other apps will make this buffer smaller.
Also, many unix programs simply can't deal with running on a small-memory system without swap - they fall over horribly if (eg) a malloc fails. Expecting us to put httpd on the system when it would adversely affect the main purpose of the box (play music) is unreasonable - it can be done, but you loose other things.
As has been noted, you can replace the init script if you want. The reason we have a small binary init is to give the fastest boot time and lowest memory footprint (ie, no bash being loaded, etc). It also deals with remounting disks read only & restoring safe-states.
The wishlist includes allowing other apps to link into the player, to give seamless integration of 3rd party stuff (whilst not interrupting the player or causing disk/memory problems) - but this is still wishlist and not scheduled for any particular player version yet. It will happen in some form, though.
Hugo
Posted by: trevorp
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 07:35
Another point that no one seems to have raised about ftp/http support: It would seem to me that if empeg put either of those tools on the developer image, than they would be providing a method for retrieving mp3's from the unit.
From what I gather, RIAA would not like that much.
Also, as was pointed out above, not everyone wants the same version of ftpd/telnetd/httpd, etc. i.e. the Washington University FTP daemon is the most popular one availble for Linux, yet some versions have security holes. The last thing I want is my empeg to get rooted by a script kiddie, because it was running an ftpd with a buffer overflow security hole in it (you guys getting tired of me mentioning this yet?
)
I personally detest vi as an editor, and just never bothered to learn emacs, even though I should. I have been happy with pico and joe as editors. Out of those four choices, we couldn't ask empeg to put them all on there. I wouldn't want two of them, and would just end up deleting them.
I agree that if you want to be a hacker, you should have to work for it. It may make it easier to compile a program, but there's not much learning going on.
-Trevor
-----
Mk 2, Green 12GB 080000349
Posted by: Roger
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 08:17
20mins to fix broken df
If you fixed it with the symlink, don't. It breaks fsck.
Roger - not necessarily speaking for empeg
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 08:46
- Sites like the Empeg developer's site are helpful, this BBS is helpful -
you're absolutle right, i never said something against the work here is done.
the rest of your posting i do not comment, sorry
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 09:49
hei but then stop suggesting things:
does you car stereo does run linux
built in microphone
free cpu power
all this stuff is useless to me for the moment. i was really thinking that i can play some tetris when staying in the traffic jam.
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 09:56
- ok lets start the httpd only in the office
- theres already a swap partition on the mark2
- i know what the init is for, i understand why you keep it small and fast, but a hook to get something startet, without lossing disk handling restoring safe state, would be nice
- ok i'll wait ........... or try myself harder to get stuff running myself
Posted by: Jazzwire
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 09:57
does your car stereo run linux?
It runs Linux (the kernel) it doesn't run a distribution like redhat etc...
built in microphone
It's not built in, there is a plug to take a microphone for later VR stuff...
free cpu power
It does have free cpu cycles, so more advanced audio codecs can be supported in the future...
You can do whatever you like with it, it just takes a bit of effort on your part...
Jazz
(List 112, Mk2 12 gig #40. Mk1 4 gig #30. Mk3 1.6 16v)
Posted by: Terminator
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 10:06
Hackers have to make an effort to look for the information they need. Make an effort and you will have the chance.
Sean
Posted by: altman
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 10:59
Suggesting things? We suggest the unit is upgradeable in software - we *don't* suggest that the average user tries to write stuff for the unit - but there are hacker-type who do.
Suggesting that the unit is a development box puts off standard consumers, who fear it'll be very hard to use, will require knowledge of linux (etc). Free CPU power and linux means that we can offer lots of things with software upgrades - and this is true for consumers, not just hackers. For example, the microphone will be used by the voice recognition - this is due in v2.0. It's not there just for people to play with with their own software.
Hugo
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 11:15
hey com on you can see my efford's here:
http://empeg.weblogger.com
Posted by: eternalsun
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 11:58
Geez, you people are giving fox a real hard time. Come on! No need to add to his frustration. He just sees a little bit more of the future than is capable right now. :-)
Calvin
Posted by: alear
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 12:34
He's going about it the wrong way though. I have the same future vision but I'm not demanding it from anyone or putting down a company that has made no claims to what he wants.
Alex Lear
Posted by: alear
Re: empeg rock's - 29/08/2000 12:41
I must admit, I like the HOWiDO section on your website Fox. It is similar to the How-to page I've been hoping for.
I'd like to see a FAQ with just developer items on it.
Alex Lear
Posted by: Nils
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 14:43
>Another point that no one seems to have raised about ftp/http support: It
>would seem to me that if empeg put either of those tools on the developer
>image, than they would be providing a method for retrieving mp3's from the
>unit.
>From what I gather, RIAA would not like that much.
Oh comeon, there must be a border, *mygod* ...
Lets not listen to mp3's at all, RIAA would not like that much...
:-[
Nils
Wow... i think this has been the least cordial post on this board _ever_ (we all need to vent)... this by far is the most well behaved board i think i've ever been to and people continue to be cordial after flamebait like this... i agree with you on some points and disagree on others... i'm not _SUPERcoder_ and would like to do some small (read: goofy little worthless, but with a high 'NEAT-O' factor) things on my EMPEG (bills, bills, bills *sigh*) and have tried to read up on writing for this and it is hard to understand for someone who isn't as technically saavy regarding programming, anyone want to take on the task of dumbing it down for people like me? or EMPEG boys (and girls?) are there commercial development tools you guys use (or are you guys just too cool for stuff like that... heh)?
i guess what i'm trying to say is i'm doing nothing at work and i think my time during/after work would be better spent making goodies than surfing or frying my brain on EQ
*ramble*
*ramble*
*ramble*
---Proud owner of empeg registration number 14309 (ugh!)---
Posted by: tfabris
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 15:12
Somebody help DogSalad, he's addicted to EverCrack.
As I recall, a recent column in PC Gamer said something to the effect of: "Some of us have considered switching from EverQuest to heroin. The advantage being that a heroin addiction doesn't show up on your monthly credit card statement."
___________
Tony Fabris
i admit i got into the game late (may of this year)... but it has take over my life :(
i lost my wife and job to my addiction :)
now i'm a boozer, a loser and an EQuser... :)
anyone else?
Atreiyu
Human Druid of the 15th season
Veeshan
Raenfal
Wood Elf Druid of the 5th season (i've recently move to quellious)
Quellious
---Proud owner of empeg registration number 14309 (ugh!)---
Posted by: PaulWay
Re: empeg suck's - 29/08/2000 22:50
So tell me, did you think your arrogant slagging of empeg was going to bring about any helpful, useful respose to your queries? Perhaps you've tried asking Sony, Panasonic, Alpine, Clarion or some other big car stereo manufacturer for all the features you want in a cheap device. Tell me, did they bend over backward to help you?
Didn't think so.
It's fairly obvious from your tone that you don't know much about empeg's history and, it seems, you're unwilling to learn even when as much advice as all of us are able to give is freely presented to you (on this and Verement's site). In that case, I'll do you a deal. Let me take that terrible burdensome piece of uncooperative hardware off your hands - it must really gall you that you bought something with so little potential so you'll be prepared to sell it really cheap.
On the other hand, if you think that everyone here, including the very busy people at empeg, has the time and patience to bend over backward to your clumsy, rude demands, then I think your doctor needs to increase the dosage of your reality pills, since they don't seem to be working very well now.
I'd suggest learning some manners and intelligence before coming back.
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
Posted by: drakino
Everquest invades the empeg BBS. - 29/08/2000 23:06
EQ had me for a while, but being one of the origional players, got tired of the "nerfing". Lucially I have moved on from that life, but still know several hooked on EQ.
For those who are wondering what nerfing is, here you go:
nerfing - A term used by EQ (and other massive multiplayer games) that describes the programmers of the game changing something in the world to tone down a skill. Most of the time it is done to try to ballance things, but most see it as a way to eventually transform the game into a pointless game of a one character system, and simply armed with a nerf bat.
Most people get upset with these changes, because they spend much of their free time and money playing. I do see it as wrong when I payed over $200 for entertainment, and got stuck with a worthless EQ CD and a bad taste for massive online gaming. Lucially I found better and less additicting games that have more entertainment value.
Posted by: Nils
SubSpace - 30/08/2000 00:33
Does anyone of you know SubSpace ??
That is one of the first multiplayer games for windoze, created about 5 years ago ...
In my first year of playing it, i played 1200 hours, wgich makes about 3.5 hours a day, counting 7 days a week, no matter if its christmas or birthday or sunday or holiday or whatever ...
I decided to play less after that year, noticing that relationship(s), sports & studies suffered a *lot* from this ...
Now i still like it, and getting back a good connection next month i am looking forward to play it again :-)
Ender's Game, Templar -Knights-, played WarZone, Pro Leaugue and EuroLeague
(now Ender's Game in Starfire Elite as Templars dissolved 2 years ago :-( )
Posted by: bonzi
Re: empeg rock's - 30/08/2000 00:47
but what i have no is a not so bad mp3 player, not more or lessThen I really suggest that you sell it and buy a
really ass kicking good MP3 player (and tell me which one it was, when you do, and does it run zope app server you mentioned).
Guys@empeg are keeping their promises so far, and they promised plug-in architecture for almost everything, way to elegantly start something else insted of player from init etc. They did not promise to opensource the player itself, and I can see why (although, of course, I would prefer if thet did).
My guess, BTW, is that Hugo
will open-source the player when some big company starts selling empeg clones, not those laughable things that are on the market today. Now the competitive advantage over big guys who can knock the hardware together much more easily than empeg (thuy don't have problems with components :) is a
gret and well thought-through peace of software that drives it. When Sony, Matsushita and others manage to clone the functionalyty, open-sourcing it and thus speeding up appearance of new features will be the advantage.
My only real gripe with development potential on empeg is only 12MB of memory. I think than guys@empeg should have been more generous (but again, it's primarily a damn
player, and it caches almost 5 minutes @ 128kbps with dev image and visualizetion active!)
Finally, I think that few months of reading through the board you claim to have done should have given you quite clear picture of what you are getting, features, shortcommings, teething problems, bugs, potenttial and all. I got exactly what I expected (OK, perhaps the software is two shades easier to use than I expected). I can wish for more, but nobody led me to expect more.
Try to be fair and separate wishes from expectations.
Cheers!
P.S. Note to others on the board: Fox seems to be serious; look at his Web site
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Zagreb, Croatia
Q#5196, MkII#80000376, 18GB green
Posted by: Henno
Re: empeg suck's - 30/08/2000 04:25
Posted by: fox
Re: empeg suck's - 30/08/2000 06:45
> Let me take that terrible burdensome piece of uncooperative hardware off your hands - it must really gall you that you bought something with so little potential
it does not ! and i always told that it has allot of potential, but i was very disapointed that, beside of some great graphics i got only a plain mp3 player nothing more.
Posted by: Geoff
Re: empeg suck's - 30/08/2000 06:59
I think when fox says 'only a plain mp3 player' he is referring to the software, and even then, I think that by 'plain' he means that he expected more in the way of development tools and utilities, rather than running down the player software itself. I do not think he is in any way putting down the empeg unit by any means.
It can sometimes be tricky enough to express yourself in English even when it is your first language, and I doubt if fox intended to provoke quite the reaction he did...
I took a look at fox's web site, and it is clear that he is committed to the empeg, and is just feeling a little frustrated that he can't (yet) do some of the things he hoped to do. I feel the same myself sometimes, but that's my fault for not having enough experience with developing in a unix/linux environment.
Geoff
---- -------
Got one of the first Mark 2 empegs...
Posted by: tanstaafl.
Re: empeg rock's - 31/08/2000 00:28
but what i see is a mp3 player with some nice graphics when playing a song. but i paid already the full price.
I don't know what you bought... but I bought an in-car entertainment system with 600 hours of music capacity; a hierarchical playlist structure that allows me to find and play any of my 2000+ pieces of music instantly with superb sound quality; the possibility (no, the guarantee!) of future product enhancements at no charge such as voice recognition, support for additional file formats, etc; a powerful but understandable user interface that gives me unparallelled control over the operation of my player; built-in end-user tools such as a 20-band parametric equalizer and a "loud" setting that can be adjusted in 1.5dB increments; and I could go on and on.
You want FTP and telnet and God only knows what other weird Linux computer black magic thingies (sorry for being so technical here) -- did it ever occur to you to play music on your empeg? That's what it was designed, manufactured, and marketed to do. That's all I want it to do. And you know what? Considering its capabilities in that regard, I think I got one hell of a bargain.
The empeg is a music player that happens to be run by a computer. Don't think of it as a computer that happens to play music!
tanstaafl.
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
Posted by: eternalsun
Re: empeg rock's - 31/08/2000 13:01
Except of course, when it comes to import duties and Customs, it becomes a computer that happens to play music. The definition flips when it's convenient...
Calvin "causing trouble..."
Posted by: Kureg
Re: empeg suck's - 01/09/2000 14:39
In reply to:
It can sometimes be tricky enough to express yourself in English even when it is your first language, and I doubt if fox intended to provoke quite the reaction he did...
I dunno... kinda hard to have a translation error when you are using words like "sucks".... I think the intended meaning was pretty clear when using that word .
Kureg
Posted by: Kureg
Re: empeg suck's - 01/09/2000 14:56
In reply to:
anyone want to take on the task of dumbing it down for people like me?
I can't say for sure that this will ever happen. The only reason I suggest that is because I remember when I bought my Timex DataLink watch and decided to jump into programming it, and it enlightened me on things just like this.
The problem is, programmers have dumbed things down over the years like crazy. Back in the days of the 8086, dumbing things down wasn't practical because you'd waste precious resources. We've all gotten lazy.
The truth is, the same situation is back. The empeg has limited resources. If you dumb it down, you take the lazy way and write non-efficient programs that hog resources... and probably make the mp3 playback suffer.
When writing programs for my Datalink, it all had to be written in assembly language cuz you only get 200 bytes of program space (really fricken tiny!). There just isn't any way to dumb that down.
Well, if you want to write efficient programs for the empeg, it'll probably mean taking a lot of short cuts, a lot of code chopping and a lot of "to the metal" programming. That stuff isn't easy to dumb down.
Grant it, you probably write inflated programs and run them on the empeg, but it wouldn't be empeg friendly, at least as far as the player goes. Running both at the same time might cause unwanted anomolies in the music playback.
Anyway, that's my rant. I'm sure it has some holes. I've been busy all day and I'm very tired, so I rushed it .
Kureg
Posted by: Henno
Re: empeg suck's - 02/09/2000 02:21
kinda hard to have a translation error when you are using words like "sucks"...I disagree, Kureg.
While learning any foreign language is difficult enough in itself and requires a lot of hard effort learn even a very basic vocabulary, coming to grips with the subtleties and
emotions of a language is of a
very different magnitude. This is complicated by the fact taht there are significant differences between languages in the way sentences are constructed (sequence of words; differences between should/would/will; choice to use simple negates as no/not or never; etc). In many languages (including English) the sentence construct is important to convey the way the speaker/writer wants to come across. Unfortunately the emotions that are associated with these constructs have very different meanings in certain languages.
Thus, the very constructs that are intended to show an interest in some languages, sound very harsh on others. Looking back over the this thread and how it started,is an example of such language differences, I think.
Henno
mk2 6 nr 6PS: Maybe Paul shoud add the suck-word to the list of censored words
Posted by: dionysus
Re: empeg suck's - 02/09/2000 06:52
...Unless you're learning a foreign language as a teenages - then the first 50% of your learnings are emotionally charged curse words:)
-mark
...proud to have owned one of the first Mark I units
Posted by: Henno
Re: empeg suck's - 02/09/2000 08:57
...Unless you're learning a foreign language as a teenager - then the first 50% of your learnings are emotionally charged curse words
Probably true also
Henno
mk2 6 nr 6
Posted by: tfabris
Re: empeg suck's - 02/09/2000 10:47
Thus, the very constructs that are intended to show an interest in some languages, sound very harsh on others. Looking back over the this thread and how it started,is an example of such language differences, I think.Sounds like Douglas Adams' description of the Babel Fish: "Meanwhile, the Babel Fish, by having removed all language barriers, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of the galaxy".
___________
Tony Fabris
Posted by: Henno
Re: empeg suck's - 02/09/2000 14:56
has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of the galaxy".with
you saying that !
remember the Tony/Toni/Tone issue?
if you just knew the discussion that tanstaaf and I had on that . . . . .
Henno
mk2 6 nr 6
Posted by: Dignan
Re: empeg rock's - 02/09/2000 23:04
i can also understand that empeg people worked hard on the mark2 but i cannot understand why they give not developpemeont support for NON rocket scientists.a) They have like 20 people at most working for them (too lazy to count right now). They will probably get around to what ever you are talking about
after they run their company first.
b) the things you are asking for sound pretty high-tech to me. I don't know anything about developer images and telnet and ftpddfjk! All I know is I got a great ICE MP3 player.
You should also remember the things that are inside the player that make it stand apart from the other, cheaper, players.
-ARM chip that I believe is around 200 MHz
-proprietary hardware (great for optimum performance in minimum space)
-heavily tested top-grade hardware. tested for performance and other things-like shock protection.
-hard drive space that is only limited by the size of the two biggest laptop HD's you can find.
-additional hardware features like cell phone mute, mic input, AUX inputs, and more.
Believe me, I looked at every player I could find, and none are as professionaly designed, built, and (most importantly) supported like the empeg.
DiGNAN
13653
Posted by: tfabris
Re: empeg suck's - 03/09/2000 00:34
remember the Tony/Toni/Tone issue? if you just knew the discussion that tanstaaf and I had on thatOkay, Henno. I'll leave it up to you as to whether you want to tell me about it, or whether I have to forcibly extract it from Doug. Either way, I'm going to find out what the discussion was about.
___________
Tony Fabris
Posted by: rob
Re: empeg rock's - 03/09/2000 03:00
i can also understand that empeg people worked hard on the mark2 but i cannot understand why they give not developpemeont support for NON rocket scientists.
The product is a consumer MP3 player, and as such even my gran can operate it. If you want to develop software for the player, then I think it's entirely reasonable that we assume a few things:
1. You are highly competent with Linux
2. You are highly competent at working with a TIGHT memory structure (no swap!)
3. You know your way around the Linux kernel
4. If you need support with simple stuff (such as the issues you've raised) you're prepared to go and find the answers yourself - we don't have time!
A number of people have already developed cool applications for the player, in particular kim and rjlov, so it can be done. We plan to release an ever expanding API for easier access to many of the player features, but this will still assume that you're a competent Linux C++ programmer.
I don't understand why you think this is so unreasonable! Were you expecting Visual Basic or something similar? That's not going to happen - we're always going to assume a certain level of competence for 3rd party developers, as you can't afford to write crap code for a platform with 12Mb of memory, no swap, a strict disk spin regime, and a complex threaded native application to co-exist with in a friendly manner.
There are lots of developers who do understand all of this, and as we've already seen, they have started to produce dumbed down walk-throughs for simple tasks such as installing telnet daemons and so forth. That's great user community support, and it doesn't impact on our time to do the essential work of developing consumer level code.
Rob
Posted by: altman
Re: empeg rock's - 03/09/2000 03:33
Actually, there are only 6 development staff (including me), one hardware contractor. There are another 4 support/admin/management, bringing the total to 10.
Hugo
Posted by: rob
Re: empeg rock's - 03/09/2000 03:37
.. with another two support staff starting next week.
Rob
Posted by: jstrain
Re: empeg rock's - 03/09/2000 05:42
yeah, but rob, with his superhuman strength, does the job of 5 customer service reps:)
12 gig, green...
Posted by: Dignan
Re: empeg rock's - 03/09/2000 14:17
Hehe, sorry about that. Shows all the more how great you guys run the company.
DiGNAN
13653