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#150502 - 25/03/2003 17:05 All's Fair
Laura
pooh-bah

Registered: 16/06/2000
Posts: 1682
Loc: Greenhills, Ohio
Hasn't Bush ever heard the old saying that all's fair in love and war? Am I the only one getting tired of him whining because Iraq isn't following the proper rules of engagement. I mean c'mon, it's a fricking war.

I haven't been following the threads on the war closely nor have I been watching much of the coverage but what little I have seen he is always complaining.

I'm not for the war and just find it sad that the world has to have one going on somewhere at all times. Civilians will always get killed and there will always be deaths by friendly fire, that is why war is messy and should be avoided.

I'm done ranting now
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#150503 - 25/03/2003 17:17 Re: All's Fair [Re: Laura]
JrFaust
member

Registered: 07/02/2002
Posts: 193
Loc: New Richmond, WI
Yeah I find it sort-of weird that they have "rules" for engaging in war. And I too wish they'd stop whining about the way that Iraq is fighting, seriously we did the same crap to the english during the revolutionary war.
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#150504 - 25/03/2003 17:43 Re: All's Fair [Re: JrFaust]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yeah but to be fair, they were taxing our tea.

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#150505 - 25/03/2003 19:47 Re: All's Fair [Re: Laura]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
He's only complaining to the people that say the US is using unfair tactics. I agree that some tactics like "scorched earth" (burning oil wells) is "fair" but why do people blast the US for an accident (say a bomb that went a stray) but don't seem too upset over Iraq putting civilians in a known tagetted building for the simple reason that it'd make a good TV moment the following day when the smoke cleared?
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#150506 - 25/03/2003 20:40 Re: All's Fair [Re: Laura]
genixia
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/02/2002
Posts: 3411
Yeah, I'm sick of it. Firstly, we all know that Iraq plays dirty.

But the reason that I'm sick of it is that the current US Administration has basically screwed US credibility with regards to the Geneva Convention. They've gone out of their way to find a *cough* legal method of avoiding it altogether when it comes to people detained in Afghanistan. And also to ensure that the detainees cannot get any legal representation within the US legal system either.

Basically, as far as I'm concerned, the Afghan detainee situation boils down to armed abduction and illegal detention. Sure, if we believe everything that we're told, they aren't being tortured, they are being well looked after and it's generating good intel. But it's no better than North Korea abducting the few dozen Japanese a couple of decades ago.

I have a hard problem listening to the US Government whine about other nations who do not respect international law, and touting how great their record is whilst this situation persists. The hypocrisy is astounding. I don't really care whether they give them legal recourse under US law or under the terms of the Geneva Convention, but they should have some.
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#150507 - 26/03/2003 02:48 Re: All's Fair [Re: genixia]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Basically, as far as I'm concerned, the Afghan detainee situation boils down to armed abduction and illegal detention.

Well said. I'm quite sure at least some of the people they have abducted are "bad" people. If they are so convinced that they are all bad people then take them to the US and try them.
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#150508 - 26/03/2003 04:07 Re: All's Fair [Re: genixia]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Basically, as far as I'm concerned, the Afghan detainee situation boils down to armed abduction and illegal detention. Sure, if we believe everything that we're told, they aren't being tortured, they are being well looked after and it's generating good intel. But it's no better than North Korea abducting the few dozen Japanese a couple of decades ago.

Exactly. And it gives very ugly black eye to the public image of intervention that most of the world (myself included) considered justified.

But current administration is generally not very fond of international treaties, is it?
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#150509 - 26/03/2003 07:24 Re: All's Fair [Re: ]
David
addict

Registered: 05/05/2000
Posts: 623
Loc: Cambridge
> they were taxing our tea.

Actually, they (we?) weren't taxing the tea - but that was precisely the problem.

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/E/teaparty/bostonxx.htm

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#150510 - 26/03/2003 08:22 Re: All's Fair [Re: David]
frog51
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
I don't even like tea.

But I really like chocolate, so I guess I would have had issues with either Cortez or Montezuma
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#150511 - 26/03/2003 08:37 Re: All's Fair [Re: David]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Hm, so American view on free trade was similar then as it is now - strictly lip service
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#150512 - 26/03/2003 09:47 Re: All's Fair [Re: bonzi]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Hm, so American view on free trade was similar then as it is now - strictly lip service
You know, this kind of shit is really starting to piss me off. So many on this BBS act like the U.S. is the first country to impose tariffs and to work trade relationships in such a way that's beneficial for our own people, and not always for others. I don't pretend to be an economist or understand any of the economic factors involved, but I do know that every country on this planet works its trade policies for its own benefit. How is the United States any different?
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#150513 - 26/03/2003 10:42 Re: All's Fair [Re: tonyc]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
US is not particularly protectionist (compared to world average). The problem is double standards. For example:
  • FDA or DoA regulates what is considered food in US and what is not. So, Scottish haggis (sp?) is not considered suitable for human consumption, as are not some kinds of Italian mortadella, German saugages, some cheeses etc. Nobody blames US for that. However, when EU standards put lower limits on hormones and antibiotics in meat (based on well documented studies showing them harmfull, especially for children), US cries 'protectionism!' and uses tame WTO 'arbitrators' to push their meat down European's throat. Now they are trying the same with genetically modified food; more precisely, they are trying to forbid labeling GM food in Europe, calling it protectionism. (I personally think that furor over GM food is blown out of proportion, but that's besides the point.)
  • US and EU are constantly bickering over subsidies (mostly indirect) for commercial aircraft manufacturers (Airbus and Boeing). Several years ago an agreement was signed about that, and US side is unable to show that EU is in breach of it. When European countries buy military aircraft, it is normal that US companies compete without discrimination (and so recently Poland has chosen F-16 over European choice of JAS39 Grippen, Rafale and Eurofighter). But, when USAF suddenly decides it needs 50 or so new tankers, EADS/Airbus is told they need not apply with A330 - that is reserved for Boeing's surplus 767s and, haeven forbid, it is not indirect subsidy. Similarly in competition for various elint and sigint aircraft (now likely to be consolidated in a single platform) - British need not apply with their Nimrod variants...
  • Steel story is rehashed too many times to repeat it again...
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#150514 - 26/03/2003 11:02 Re: All's Fair [Re: bonzi]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
The problem is double standards.
You seem infinitely more informed than me on these issues, so I can't argue with you. I just find it hard to believe that other countries aren't also applying standards when it's convenient for them, and trying to get whatever advantage they can. I'm not saying it's honorable, or that multiple wrongs make a right... But I'm reasonably confident that if I did enough research, I could find instances where others are using the same negotiating tactics.
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#150515 - 26/03/2003 11:18 Re: All's Fair [Re: tonyc]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
You might be right. It's probably simply that US is the biggest bully in the schoolyard... There are examples of similar application of double standards by EU countries, receiving end being countries 'in transition' (and probably others).
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#150516 - 26/03/2003 11:46 Re: All's Fair [Re: tonyc]
lopan
old hand

Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
I'm in general totally sick of the frickin anti US sentiments expressed on this board. You have iraq building really nasty weapons, killing it's own people in very disgusting ways, treating pows like [censored], and the US is a bad bad country... oh.. frickin boo hoo, as far as I'm concerned it's an excessivly warped way of seeing things. Yeah the US might not have the best foreign policy but it's by far not the worst, dunno maybe we have to pay our people to explode in shopping malls or gas our own people to be considered a better place...


Edited by lopan (26/03/2003 11:54)
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#150517 - 26/03/2003 12:48 Re: All's Fair [Re: lopan]
jaharkes
enthusiast

Registered: 20/08/2002
Posts: 340
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Yeah the US might not have the best foreign policy but it's by far not the worst, dunno maybe we have to pay our people to explode in shopping malls or gas our own people to be considered a better place...

But 'gassing your own people' wouldn't be considered 'foreign policy', would it?
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#150518 - 26/03/2003 12:51 Re: All's Fair [Re: jaharkes]
lopan
old hand

Registered: 28/01/2002
Posts: 970
Loc: Manassas VA
I think you get the gist....
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#150519 - 26/03/2003 13:06 Re: All's Fair [Re: bonzi]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
You might be right. It's probably simply that US is the biggest bully in the schoolyard...
That's where I think a lot of this comes from around here. Because the United States has been the leader for so long, everyone wants to point to every mistake, just so our heads don't get too big. You know what? Our heads aren't that big. We realize our mistakes. We realize our country isn't perfect. But the last thing we need is to be reminded of that fact, especially during a time when we're putting a lot of our reputation and stature as a world leader on the line.
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#150520 - 26/03/2003 13:06 Re: All's Fair [Re: lopan]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Yeah, I'm sick of it too. There are certainly legitimate gripes you can throw at the United States, and now that the U.S. is in a precarious position with the war, everyone seems to be piling on even more than usual.
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#150521 - 26/03/2003 13:09 Re: All's Fair [Re: jaharkes]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
That's his point. If the US didn't do anything about it, then the same people would be complaining that we just stood by and watched. I remember just as much opposition to the US and NATO getting involved in Kosovo. How many mass graves were Russia and Europe going to ignore before they finally decided to do something about it? Or more likely, how many 1,000's of people would need to be butchered there before those same people telling us not to get involved reemed us for doing nothing? Kinda reminds me of how the same people that said we should have gotten Iraq out of Kuwait with sanctions (huh?) the complained that the sanctions were causing the Iraqi babies to starve.

I think you're right, the US is simply the biggest kid on the block.

How many other countries would it take to total the amount of money the US spends whenever a national disaster hits some nation? How many foreign people help the US when earthquakes hit LA or our rivers flood? When has Russia offered rescue divers to save American sailors? (Hint, the US offered to help raise the sunken Russian sub even after Russia falsely accused the US of causing it to sink.) Why was the US more of a factor in peace in Ireland than any mainland European country?

Sure we mess up from time to time. The world is an unpredictable place and we're living in a post cold-war era that everyone is trying to figure out. There are a lot of things that our government did that didn't pan out or backfired but those couldn't have been predicted. Sometimes those costs are still worth it - as in the case of Afghanistan.
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#150522 - 26/03/2003 13:11 Re: All's Fair [Re: jaharkes]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
But 'gassing your own people' wouldn't be considered 'foreign policy', would it?
It's certainly a curious domestic agenda though, ain't it.
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#150523 - 26/03/2003 13:19 Re: All's Fair [Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Very well said.
Sure we mess up from time to time.
Yes, we do. And instead of trying to chip in and help, many nations would rather watch us strike out own, and if we happen to succeed, jump on board, saying that they were with us all the time. (Chirac, I'm looking in your direction, mister "Oh, eef ve find ze chemical veppons, that's a different story.") Talk about a double standard. I understand that war is the last option, and I do think the U.S. should have tried harder to arrive at a concensus, but when you won't even negotiate anything that involves Iraq to be accountable, that's unacceptable.
. There are a lot of things that our government did that didn't pan out or backfired but those couldn't have been predicted. Sometimes those costs are still worth it - as in the case of Afghanistan.
Don't pronounce our efforts in Afghanistan dead just yet... We just went in there a year ago. There's still time for the new Afghan government to get the rest of the country under control, especially with our help. We're still working that angle with our people, too.
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#150524 - 26/03/2003 13:24 Re: All's Fair [Re: lopan]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I'm in general totally sick of the frickin anti US sentiments expressed on this board.

I think the problem is that the rest of the world is a bit fed up with constantly being told what a wonderful place the US is and having US corporate culture rammed down their throats.

Don't get me wrong, I like the US. I'm off to the US on holiday for 3 weeks later this year. Most of the Americans I have personally met, talk to or chatted to on this board are excellent people. I work in an American company and speak to several US collegues a day.

That is not the image that most people around the world see most of the time though. The image that most people see most of the time comes across as a very arogant "we're better at everything than you" approach.

With a MacDonalds, Starbucks, Borders etc on every corner people feel like they are being forced further and further towards an American culture whether they like it or not.

Until a few more Americans realise that you often come off as arogant a lot of the time things, aren't going to change, a large proportion of the world is going to hate you. Sorry.
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#150525 - 26/03/2003 13:27 Re: All's Fair [Re: andy]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
With a MacDonalds, Starbucks, Borders etc on every corner people feel like they are being forced further and further towards an American culture whether they like it or not.
Hell, I think most Americans feel the same way, especially if you're going to use those examples.
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#150526 - 26/03/2003 13:27 Re: All's Fair [Re: andy]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
With a MacDonalds, Starbucks, Borders etc on every corner people feel like they are being forced further and further towards an American culture whether they like it or not.
I guess people are being forced to eat at McDonalds, drink coffee at Starbucks, and buy books at Borders? Seems to me if people were so fed up with those things, they wouldn't spend their hard earned pounds, francs, and guilders there... right?

Funny, I don't ever hear Americans complaining that Chinese culture is being shoved down our throats because there's a Chinese restaurant in every shopping center...
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#150527 - 26/03/2003 13:29 Re: All's Fair [Re: wfaulk]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Hell, I think most Americans feel the same way, especially if you're going to use those examples.

Unfortunately most of the world probably thing that most Americans spend all their time in McDs and Starbucks....

Shall we blame it all on Hollywood
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#150528 - 26/03/2003 13:30 Re: All's Fair [Re: andy]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Shall we blame it all on Hollywood
Now you're talking!
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#150529 - 26/03/2003 13:31 Re: All's Fair [Re: andy]
SE_Sport_Driver
carpal tunnel

Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
Hey, I'm just as sickened by the corporate culture of McDonald's and Nike, but that has nothing to do with this (although, in a small way I do think that Rock&Roll and McDonalds helped the Soviet Union collapse). Our businesses aren't state owned or run .

Tony, by Afghanistan, I was refering to how we helped the very same people we ended up fighting by giving them weapons to shoot at the Soviets some 20 years earlier. In hindsight, I still think it was worth it.
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#150530 - 26/03/2003 13:33 Re: All's Fair [Re: tonyc]
blitz
addict

Registered: 20/11/2001
Posts: 455
Loc: Texas
and now that the U.S. is in a precarious position with the war

What precarious position are you referring to?

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#150531 - 26/03/2003 13:34 Re: All's Fair [Re: tonyc]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
Funny, I don't ever hear Americans complaining that Chinese culture is being shoved down our throats because there's a Chinese restaurant in every shopping center...

I think that is probably because their isn't a Chinese book shop, a Chinese burger restaurant, a Chinese pizza palour, a Chinese coffee shop and a cinema showing 95% Chinese films in every shopping centre...

...but make that three of each of the book shop, burger place, pizza place and coffee shop as they tend to hunt in packs

P.S. What is the point of having three Starbucks stores within several hundred metres of each other ?
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