New Linux Server

Posted by: Roger

New Linux Server - 30/08/2004 17:00

So, I get home from a friend's wedding in Ilkley, West Yorks, to find that the console on my Linux box is spewing a load of "read failure: hde" messages.

It appears that one of my 250Gb IDE disks has just snuffed it.

Obviously, I could just buy another one (and I'll be canvassing for hard disk opinions at some point). This, of course, is not the way I do things, as you know.

I was planning, at some point, to move to SATA. So, now seems like a good time to think about it.

Currently, my Linux box is an Asus A7V with a 950MHz Athlon Tbird on it. I'm using a Highpoint HTP374 RAID card with Linux (not for the RAID, though).

I'm a bit narked off, because the disk that's died is my /home partition -- just after I decided not to bother backing it up to DVD, because it would take too long.

Fortunately, most of my important stuff is backed up, so it's not quite as traumatic as it could be.

So: assuming that I decide to upgrade to a new PC, can I get advice about the following:

A case -- I want something relatively quiet but, above all, it's gotta be cool.
A motherboard.
A CPU. Should I get an AMD64 or something exciting like that?
Hard disks -- I'm considering going for RAID5 for reliability, and maybe sticking 3 or 4 disks in it, but that means that I'll probably want to opt for SATA -- 'cos PATA is a PITA to cable. This should be kept in mind when thinking about the case.
So, do SATA RAID solutions exist that work with Linux (Debian/unstable)? Are they particularly hard to set up?

Backup. Tape is expensive, but I'm thinking that it might be expensive not to use it. Any thoughts?
Posted by: andym

Re: New Linux Server - 30/08/2004 17:18

As far as cases go I've got the silver version of this:



I do wish this version had been available when I bought the other one. It's PSU'less so I bought an Enermax twin fan quiet PSU which even with two case fans is still whisper quiet. BTW, the illuminated fan at the front is visible through the grill, which looks cool.

As for CPU and mobo, Athlon XP2000 chips can be had for peanuts and following on from another thread do you really need oodles of processing power for a server? I've had ASUS mobos for a few years now and never had a problem.
Posted by: robricc

Re: New Linux Server - 30/08/2004 17:39

Quote:
A case -- I want something relatively quiet but, above all, it's gotta be cool.

I love the AMS gMono. With recent versions though, it's pretty difficult to mount a fan on the front. The style of the case makes a front case fan a bit worthless anyway. The has room for two in the back though. Most recently I built a 3.0GHz P4 with 4 hard disks and 2 fans in the back and it's pretty quiet.

By cool you mean stylish... right?
Posted by: jimhogan

Re: New Linux Server - 30/08/2004 18:03

I just this past weekend turned on my water-cooled dual Opteron

Quote:
A case -- I want something relatively quiet but, above all, it's gotta be cool.


I recycled a Lian-Li PC60 case. I still like their layout.

Quote:
A motherboard.


I got a Tyan Tiger K8W. Smooth sailing so far. I was also pleased to find Tyan-specific sensors.conf files for lm-sensors last eve on Tyan Web site. Made that easy.

Quote:
A CPU. Should I get an AMD64 or something exciting like that?


I confess I got Opterons 'cuz I liked the way it sounded. Nice package, though -- excellent contact with the waterblocks.

Quote:
Hard disks -- I'm considering going for RAID5 for reliability, and maybe sticking 3 or 4 disks in it, but that means that I'll probably want to opt for SATA -- 'cos PATA is a PITA to cable. This should be kept in mind when thinking about the case. So, do SATA RAID solutions exist that work with Linux (Debian/unstable)? Are they particularly hard to set up?


I forsook the on-board SATA RAID on the K8w for a 3Ware 2-port SATA card (like $140 at NewEgg) and am running 200GB RAID-1. For ~$300 you can get a 4-port 3ware SATA card that would support RAID-5. they are a cinch to set up. Nice monitoring daemon. The 3ware driver is pretty much same driver used for their PATA cards and has been in several distros for a while. I'd say that if you are using 2.6 kernel for Debian, you'll find it there automagically.
Posted by: drakino

Re: New Linux Server - 30/08/2004 18:31

I'm still waiting on Linux support for the Raidcore SATA raid controllers. An 8 port one is $350ish, and offers RAID5, online expansion, and other features normally reserved for high end SCSI controllers.

The Broadcom takeover delayed the Linux drivers a bit, but drivers are now out for 3 variants of Linux, with a kernel module for all versions to come later.
Posted by: muzza

Re: New Linux Server - 30/08/2004 18:56

I've been really happy with my Antec P160 case. if you like something a little flashy. Its got a fan bay in front of the drives and all the drives on slide in trays.
Posted by: SonicSnoop

Re: New Linux Server - 30/08/2004 20:03

Case wise I have always like the look of this one :
http://www.ahanix.com/platinumxp.html
even tho I have never gotten it.
Posted by: andym

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 07:37

Quote:
I've been really happy with my Antec P160 case.


Ooo, that is nice....
Posted by: Shonky

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 09:21

Quote:
Quote:
I've been really happy with my Antec P160 case.


Ooo, that is nice....


Yes that is pretty cool. Murray, where did you get it in Brisvegas?
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 09:41

Quote:
By cool you mean stylish... right?


Actually I meant low temperature, but if it looks good, that's a bonus. I do like the look of that Antec P160, though. I might just move my existing CPU/board into a new case and replace the HPT controller with a 3ware SATA RAID card.
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 09:45

Ooh, ooh, finally found somewhere in the UK that stocks 4-in-3 drive bay converters (put 4x3.5" hard drives in a 3x5.25" space, including cooling).

Scan have got them. They're out of stock at the moment, but it's encouraging.
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 09:59

Quote:
3ware SATA RAID card.


Ooh, £229 + VAT for the 3ware 8506-4LP (4 port). From here. I'm sure I'll be able to find cheaper with some more looking, but that's cheaper than I was expecting already.

One question: PCI compatibility. I assume that my A7V is old enough to still be 32-bit PCI-33. The 8000-series Escalade cards are 64-bit/66MHz. Presumably this will still work, just at degraded performance?

Oh, and 3ware only claim support for Red Hat and SuSE. I thought that support was in the kernel sources, meaning that I'll be fine with Debian (currently using a 2.4 kernel), or is it a binary driver, which will be a headache?
Posted by: andym

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 10:36

Quote:
One question: PCI compatibility. I assume that my A7V is old enough to still be 32-bit PCI-33. The 8000-series Escalade cards are 64-bit/66MHz. Presumably this will still work, just at degraded performance?


Doesn't this differ from card to card? I looked at an 8 port SATA card with was PCI-64 which said it would not work in a 32bit slot.
Posted by: siberia37

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 11:06

Quote:
Quote:
3ware SATA RAID card.

One question: PCI compatibility. I assume that my A7V is old enough to still be 32-bit PCI-33. The 8000-series Escalade cards are 64-bit/66MHz. Presumably this will still work, just at degraded performance?




I'm not sure but I've used quite a few different 64-bit PCI cards in 32-bit slots with no problems. Now in this case it might be a waste of money though.. what's the point of going SATA RAID if you don't get the performance. That's like buying a Ferrari that can't go over 55 MPH (100 km/h)...
Posted by: muzza

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 11:28

There is a supplier in South Brisbane where I picked up a case for a client but i got mine thru auspcmarket.com.au. I'll dig out the supplier's name later tomorrow at work.

Intel make a hotswap SATA drive cage and a RAID controller, like this. 3ware's controller and cage are quite good too, the cage is very chrome and shiney. Might go well with the p160

I thought, depending on the pin configs, 64bit controllers could sit in 32 bit slots, you just don't get the throughput. Actually, I'm sure this is the case and I've done this for someone recently.
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 11:38

Quote:
I thought, depending on the pin configs, 64bit controllers could sit in 32 bit slots, you just don't get the throughput. Actually, I'm sure this is the case and I've done this for someone recently.


According to 3ware's motherboard compatibility list, it'll work with a selection of boards that have PCI-33 slots, but doesn't mention mine. Since it mentions "64-bit PCI-66" explicitly for other boards, I assume that "PCI-33" means 32-bit/33MHz (does 33MHz even support 64-bit?).

OTOH, I just found a BIOS upgrade that allows support for >128Gb drives with this motherboard, which is why I installed the HPT card in the first place. If I opt for JBOD, I can plug 16 disks in, even without buying the 3ware . Doesn't give me hardware RAID5, though.
Posted by: SuperQ

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 13:47

I just built this box a few months ago:

https://nerp.net/gallery/nerp

It contains (picture is of bare bones, before fully installed)

2x AMD Opteron 246 (2.0ghz)
1gb PC2700 (replacing 2x512 with 4x1024 sticks this winter)
Tyan S2882 (K8S Pro)
2x Seagate baracuda 120gb drives (software mirroring)
LZS (rackmountnet.com) Opteron 1U case (very loud, but it's a colo)

I'm currently running Debian/i386 sarge, but I am hoping that the amd64 port will have a nice stable sarge version this winter when I plan to do the ram upgrade. I had a 3ware 7500-4 (older board) and 4x 60gb Hitachi drives, but it turns out there are serious issues with 7xxx 3ware cards and the new AMD 8111 chipset (and two intel chips) that causes wierd crashes/lockups. I ended up replacing the 120gb of RAID10 with 120gb of RAID1 (linux software raid) using PATA-SATA adatpers and the onboard SATA controler. (which does crappy software raid, which I didn't use)
Posted by: peter

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 14:15

Quote:
Oh, and 3ware only claim support for Red Hat and SuSE. I thought that support was in the kernel sources, meaning that I'll be fine with Debian (currently using a 2.4 kernel), or is it a binary driver, which will be a headache?

It's certainly in 2.4.26 and IIRC has been in 2.4 for a while: CONFIG_BLK_DEV_3W_XXXX_RAID.

OTOH Mark Lord has been dropping hints on this BBS recently about working on Linux drivers for some unspecified but really nice SATA controller. And I notice today that there seems to be something called SATA-2 which I hadn't previously heard of. So if you can wait a bit there might be something more tasty coming along.

Peter
Posted by: SuperQ

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 14:57

I had been using a 3ware 7500-4 for 2 years before upgrading to my new opteron. (read other post about chipset compatability)

I was using an old Intel 440bx chipset board, with the thing in 32bit/33mhz slot. No problems.

Yes.. there are 33mhz/64bit slots out there, in some of the first gen 64bit boards (alpha cpu boards come to mind)

I was previously running 2.4.x with my 3ware, no problems.. and 2.6.x also work fine. I would reccomend 2.6.x, it's been very nice on my new server. (having alsa and lm-sensors in the main kernel is very nice)
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 17:01

Quote:
It appears that one of my 250Gb IDE disks has just snuffed it.


And, surprise, surprise, it's out of warranty by 3 months and 5 days, according to Maxtor's RMA Wizard webpage.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 19:42

Quote:
I've been really happy with my Antec P160 case. if you like something a little flashy. Its got a fan bay in front of the drives and all the drives on slide in trays.


I just looked at this case in CompUSA today. I like it in some ways but not others:

Pros:
- I like the orientation of the internal 3.5" bays
- giant fan in the back and space for one in front of the interal 3.5" bays.
- dust filter on front intake
- I really like the external drive bay covers. It looks a lot slicker to have matching fronts on your optical drives. They've even made these covers pretty accomodating for a wide range of drives

Cons:
- I'm suprised at how light the material is. I would have expected more from a $130 case. The front bezel, if I remember correctly, is entirely plastic. The rest of the case is made up of what appears to be aluminum, but it seems thin to me.
- for $160, they couldn't throw in the front fan? what's up with that? I'd think it would be all or none.
- what's the deal with the swiveling front connectors? Is there a purpose to that?
- are you able to screw the internal drives in place, or are those slides all you have? Doesn't that cause a lot of vibration noise?

I'd be interested in hearing your response on these points. Cases are pretty interesting to me, and I like seeing the wide variety there is out there.

I think if I were getting a case of this type, I'd get something like this. I tend to like Lian-Li, and though most people say how expensive they are, I think you get a good value considering the build quality.
Posted by: jimhogan

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 20:49

Quote:
I think if I were getting a case of this type, I'd get something like this. I tend to like Lian-Li, and though most people say how expensive they are, I think you get a good value considering the build quality.


Wow. $129. That's the updated version of what I have and I agree, it is a great case. I particularly like the slide out hard drive tray. Also the trivially easy side panels (that I loaded up with sound deadening) and the 3 speed front fans (now running inaudibly on "1"). That case was $160-$170 a couple years back. I have had good luck buying from Directron, too.
Posted by: Dignan

Re: New Linux Server - 31/08/2004 23:02

Yeah, I like the side panels too. I also got mine from Directron (the PC-75), and had a good experience. I wish it had the slide out motherboard tray, but the 7x cases are so huge you've got plenty of room

What model did you have, the PC60? I like how the front inputs look on this one, very stylish.
Posted by: Daria

Re: New Linux Server - 01/09/2004 04:14

The warranty on new disks sucks these days, doesn't it....
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 01/09/2004 04:44

Quote:
The warranty on new disks sucks these days, doesn't it....


I think I'm gonna get some Seagate Barracuda 7200.7's. They have a 3 year warranty. They're also very quiet, quite quick, and the 200Gb model is about £80 inc VAT from various online retailers.
Posted by: drakino

Re: New Linux Server - 01/09/2004 05:16

Quote:
One question: PCI compatibility. I assume that my A7V is old enough to still be 32-bit PCI-33. The 8000-series Escalade cards are 64-bit/66MHz. Presumably this will still work, just at degraded performance?


PCI voltage is a concern. I've never personally come across a 64 bit card that won't work in a 32 bit slot that can support the right voltage.

Posted by: wfaulk

Re: New Linux Server - 01/09/2004 05:57

Hmm. On my Suns, the different stop placement was associated with the PCI bus speed. I wonder if the bus speed and voltage are directly related?
Posted by: jimhogan

Re: New Linux Server - 01/09/2004 17:44

Quote:
What model did you have, the PC60? I like how the front inputs look on this one, very stylish.


Yes, the PC60. And, yes, very stylish.....hmmm ("Stop it, Jim! Stop!")
Posted by: jimhogan

Re: New Linux Server - 01/09/2004 17:46

Quote:
I think I'm gonna get some Seagate Barracuda 7200.7's. They have a 3 year warranty. They're also very quiet


This is what I got and, yes, very quiet. I'm so happy.
Posted by: robricc

Re: New Linux Server - 01/09/2004 18:22

Dell has those for $106.36 (~£59) on the US site with free shipping. Maybe someone's coming over here and can bring them back to you? Depending on how many you're buying, that can add up.
Posted by: phaigh

Re: New Linux Server - 01/09/2004 20:01

I recently bought a case and so on for a home server, partially prompted by the recent RAID 5 thread on here ...

I ended up getting a Lian Li 6070. this has room for 4 3.5 HD's inthe bottom, cooled, in a vertical placement, for better access/airflow.

It's also sound-proofed, and I honestly can't tell when it's on or not any more.

Probably the best £100 or so I'ev ever spent on a case.

There are a bunch of reviews of it wandering around on the web too.

I ended up using a Promise SATA RAID5 card as well, but I use it under Windows 2003, so I've no idea if it has Linux drivers or not. The windows software is a little hokey.

Cheers,

Paul.
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 11/09/2004 08:01

Quote:
Hard disks -- I'm considering going for RAID5 for reliability, and maybe sticking 3 or 4 disks in it, but that means that I'll probably want to opt for SATA


So I splashed some cash last week. I'm now the proud owner of a 3ware 8506-4LP SATA RAID5 card, a 3ware 4-in-3 SATA drive cage, which supports hot-swapping, and 4x 200Gb Seagate Barracude 7200.7 SATA disk drives.

For the moment, I was planning to install it in my existing case, with my existing motherboard, but I've run into a bit of a problem -- the RDC-400-SATA drive cage is quite deep, and won't go in all the way without colliding with some important looking capacitors on the motherboard.

Moreover, while the 3ware drive cage takes up 3x5.25" bays, and my CD-RW drive takes up another, the claimed 4-bay space on this PC actually appears to be 3.99-bay, so it won't squeeze in vertically either.

So, it looks like I'm off to Tottenham Court Road this afternoon to pick up a new case.

On the good news front, however, the card/cable installation went fine. The card works fine in a 32-bit PCI slot on my Asus A7V, and I've installed the drives in the cage. The RAID5 array creation took well over an hour, but it's done now, and I'm just reinstalling the kernel to add support for the controller card.
Posted by: andy

Re: New Linux Server - 11/09/2004 08:03

Where did you buy the card and the cage from Roger ?
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 11/09/2004 10:11

Quote:
Where did you buy the card and the cage from Roger ?


http://www.hamiltone.co.uk/

I also got the disks from them. They were a little bit more than from Dabs, say, but I opted for the convenience of getting everything from the same supplier.
Posted by: andym

Re: New Linux Server - 11/09/2004 10:54

Quote:
http://www.hamiltone.co.uk/



Wow, that web site looks dodgy.
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 11/09/2004 12:19

Quote:
Wow, that web site looks dodgy.


Yeah, I'll grant you that they've not spent a lot of effort on the website, but they were friendly enough on the phone, and the stuff turned up when they said it would.

I get the impression that they're mainly trade (schools, councils, etc.) suppliers, rather than for individuals, so they're probably not so bothered about the website.
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 11/09/2004 15:49

Quote:
I'm now the proud owner of ...


Code:
roger@vague:~$ lspci | grep 3w
0000:00:0a.0 RAID bus controller: 3ware Inc 3ware 7000-series ATA-RAID (rev 01)
roger@vague:~$ df -H /home
Filesystem             Size   Used  Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/sda1              591G    34M   561G   1% /home


Quote:
So, it looks like I'm off to Tottenham Court Road this afternoon to pick up a new case.


Not a great selection. I'll have to leave the lid off for the time being.
Posted by: drakino

Re: New Linux Server - 11/09/2004 17:44

Size 591G
Used 34M
Avail 561G

You might want to turn down, or off, the root reserved space, since it's eating 30 gigs. using mke2fs, you need -m 0 for 0% reserved. Not sure if it can be changed after format.
Posted by: tman

Re: New Linux Server - 11/09/2004 18:19

tune2fs will do it for an existing FS. It's -m 0 as well.
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 11/09/2004 20:25

Quote:
You might want to turn down, or off, the root reserved space, since it's eating 30 gigs.


Good point. That's something I'll look at doing soon. Since it's mounted as /home, I don't think root really needs any reserved space on that particular drive.
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 11/09/2004 20:28

Quote:
It appears that one of my 250Gb IDE disks has just snuffed it.


I plugged it in today to see what data I could salvage, and it wouldn't spin up. It just kept going crunch, crunch, whir, and wasn't detected in the BIOS.

In the end, I figured that I had nothing to lose and just gave it a sharp tap with a heavy screwdriver, and it's sorted itself out to the point where I can start trying to get the data off.

I'm still getting a huge number of read errors, but I hope to get some of the data back. Obviously, all of the retries are taking their toll, and it's probably not going to be finished until the morning.
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 12/09/2004 06:59

Quote:
Not a great selection. I'll have to leave the lid off for the time being.


As mentioned, my existing case isn't deep enough -- the 3ware drive cage fouls the motherboard if it's pushed in all the way. My existing case also doesn't quite fit the RAID cage and another 5.25" device properly.

I've spent a couple of hours casting around on the 'net (mainly at Overclockers.co.uk -- they've got a good selection of cases), and I even found a case that I liked in PC World on Tottenham Court Road (yeah, I know -- I was shocked, too).

The problem is that I have no way of knowing if they're large enough. To get the drive cage to fit, I need one of the following:

  • 250mm of depth between the drive bays and the edge of the motherboard. The 3ware cage is about 40-50mm deeper than most CD-ROM drives.
  • 3x 5.25" drive bays that are totally clear vertically above where the motherboard tray goes.
  • If the case is wider than average, about an inch of space between the edge of the drive cage and the motherboard tray (so that the components on the board don't collide with the cage).


The problem with Internet retailers (and case manufacturers) is that they don't actually have any information about clearances inside their cases -- in some instances, they don't even have any pictures of the insides of the cases. And when they do, they're completely empty, so you have no way of knowing where an ATX motherboard will come to on the motherboard cage.

So I have a question for those who've been recommending cases that they own:

How much room actually is in there?
Posted by: Roger

Re: New Linux Server - 12/09/2004 07:11

Quote:
the claimed 4-bay space on this PC actually appears to be 3.99-bay, so it won't squeeze in vertically either.


Ah. 3ware appear to think that one bay should be 43.5mm -- the cage is 130mm, and my case manufacturer seems to think it's 42.5mm. My CD-ROM drives all appear to be 42mm. Actually the specification's probably in inches.

Basically, I think that my case manufacturer and 3ware have interpreted 43mm +/- 0.5mm in opposite directions.

Either way, I'm not going to get 130mm + 42mm in a 170mm space.

Hmmm.
Posted by: muzza

Re: New Linux Server - 12/09/2004 19:34

We've always bought Hudson cases for this arrangement. The intel sc5200 is based on it. Chunky case tho; very much server market. Not sure if there's a variant which takes non server boards.
Posted by: peter

Re: New Linux Server - 13/09/2004 08:45

Quote:
We've always bought Hudson cases for this arrangement.

Hudsons are nice (some of our servers at Empeg are in Hudsons) but they aren't cheap.

Quote:
Not sure if there's a variant which takes non server boards.

A normal ATX board should work fine in an EATX case -- all the PCI slots, screwholes etc. are in the same place. It just won't fill it so much. This could in fact be an obvious way of fulfulling Roger's clearance criteria: if it's built for 12x13in boards and yours is 12x10in, that's 3in of extra clearance right there.

Peter