Sync failure, stage 5, 0x800703e4

I just upgraded to the latest (9c) beta, and got the synchronization failure
message in the subject line. That's using USB. Using the Serial link,
it works fine (only 10 times slower.) Yes, I am using the correct Emplode
that matches the 9c release.


Paul Gillingwater
Red Hat Certified Engineer

Hi,

I've just got this today as well.

You are not alone!

Paul.

Paul Haigh, 6GB, Blue
Reg: 4120 - Serial 00254

No one has reported, in either of these threads, whether or not the 9C+ interim build that Mike posted fixed this problem or not.

Anyone?

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Yup, me. I ran into this error two weeks ago and Mike sent me Developer 9C to see if it solved the problem. It didn't. I haven't heard anything from Mike since.

=-C

_______________________________
List 351, empeg 00045, 10gb, Amber

Yup, me. I ran into this error two weeks ago and Mike sent me Developer 9C to see if it solved the problem. It didn't. I haven't heard anything from Mike since.

Wait, I was referring to 9c+ (note the plus sign, that's important). Did you test 9C or 9C+?


Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Hi,

From the other thread running on this subject, mac put out a emplode update to fix the 0x800703e4 error:

The sync error being discussed in this thread has nothing much to do with what you do, whether you modify playlists or upload tunes or whatever. As far as I can tell it is only to do with:

1. Running Windows 98SE.
2. Doing a reasonably long synchronise (at least once in a Windows session).

I believe the problem is due to power management changes in 98SE. I've got a version of emplode that reduces the number of times the error happens but doesn't actually completely eliminate it. If you want to try it it's available at http://www2.empeg.com/upgrades/test/interim/private/emplode-0.84.2.zip.

If this doesn't help then try turning off every single power management feature you can find.

I've been investigating the USB driver to find out exactly what needs to be changed but I haven't found anything conclusive yet.

And a new version of the empeg software to combat an out of memory error 0xffffff...

It means that the player has run out of memory (RAM, not disk) which is odd. Try this update and see if it helps:
http://www2.empeg.com/upgrades/test/interim/private/developer-beta9c+.upgrade

Even mac agrees that the new emplode version doesn't solve the problem, just makes it less likely.

I'm going to try the new emplode tonight, but I've no need (I think) to try the 9c+ release for the empeg, right mac?

Cheers,

Paul


Paul Haigh, 6GB, Blue
Reg: 4120 - Serial 00254

Hi,

I was testing beta9C+ with device driver tweaks for Mike. It was more solid than before, but I could still get it to crab out doing extensive background disk copies.

I've now switched to Windows 2000 from Win98SE, problem gone...
For my laptop, Windows 2000 is the way to go, it's great. My home PC, I'll leave Win98SE on for the games!

Regards,


_________________________________________
John, (S/No 0114, 20G).

I can report that I was able to successfully sync via the USB with the new Beta 9c+, whereas previously only the serial port would work. Good work! I can now fill up the remaining 3 Gb on my 10 Gb disk....

Thanks!


Paul Gillingwater
Red Hat Certified Engineer

I wrote too soon. After two albums, it's now crashing again. I rebooted the player but didn't reboot the PC yet (I'll try that next.) The error code is exactly the same, and I can report that there are no power-saving features enabled on this Windows 98 PC (I'm planning to upgrade to W2K if you can confirm that the USB Emplode will work.)


Paul Gillingwater
Red Hat Certified Engineer

9C

_______________________________
List 351, empeg 00045, 10gb, Amber

Hi,

In reply to:

---

I wrote too soon. After two albums, it's now crashing again. I rebooted the player but didn't reboot the PC yet (I'll try that next.) The error code is exactly the same, and I can report that there are no power-saving features enabled on this Windows 98 PC (I'm planning to upgrade to W2K if you can confirm that the USB Emplode will work.)

---

Win2000 works fine for me, where Win98SE caused problems.


Regards,


_________________________________________
John, (S/No 0114, 20G).

I can't belive I did that again. It's Beta Nine C Plus (B9C ) that I've tested and still had problems with.

=-C

_______________________________
List 351, empeg 00045, 10gb, Amber

Weird behavior from the BBS. I really did put pluses into my notes but they don't show up. ------>>>
After the arrow should be a plus sign.

Board Bug?

_______________________________
List 351, empeg 00045, 10gb, Amber

+

The character, above, seems ok to me... Dunno. Using an international keyb, maybe?

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

. . . whether or not the 9C+ interim build that Mike posted fixed this problem . . .

There isn't a lot of difference between these versions. Added the extra Toshiba drive (whopping 18GB ) to empeg last night, and upgraded emplode to the 'plus' version. Well, this interim version also fell over on the infamous 0x800703e4 error (after some 25 MP3s), wiping out all the playlist details that were set up the receive the files.

Following Paul G's suggestion, I then set up emplode for a serial synch; re-created the playlists and let it run for the night copying some 500MB of MP3s. This morning, after 11 hours of uploading, synching was still alive. At that time I guess that it had transferred over 400MB of MP3s and would need another two hours to complete.

The problem thus is definitely USB related. I'll try Mike's updated USB drivers to see if they make any difference.

Setting-up playlist structures and losing them all during synching, drives me nuts. I don't understand why so few people complain about this nasty emplode error here. Or are all of you using NT/W2000, or anything from outside the gates? (Note for Hugo et al: No way you empeg folks can go live on Mark2 with the current upload facilities for W98)

Wish List
Mike, any chance you can re-arrange the sequence of updating that takes place within the synch process? When emplode fails during the file transfers, it hasn't applied any playlist maintenance yet and takes all tediously entered details down the drain. If playlists in empeg were updated before the tricky file transfers, it would be much more simple to recover.

Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

don't understand why so few people complain about this nasty emplode error here.

Well, we do complain. I've seen these two threads (the one starting with "8" and the one starting with "9") updated almost daily. I haven't even gotten that particular error, and I still try to contribute something useful to the discussion once in a while.

Note for Hugo et al: No way you empeg folks can go live on Mark2 with the current upload facilities for W98

The Empeg guys know about the error at this point, and they're just as anxious to see it fixed as we are. I'm sure they would agree with that statement. That's why it's important for us to be as careful as possible in reporting the bug information to Empeg.

If playlists in empeg were updated before the tricky file transfers, it would be much more simple to recover.

I think there might be a design reason they do the transfers first. They want to make sure that the player itself never chokes on a missing file, even if a synch failed. I think it's a relatively elegant stopgap measure to work around a technically thorny problem.

Your issue with it boils down to the fact that you spend more time organizing playlists than you do dragging files into Emplode. So the bulk of your work is lost on a synch failure. Same for me. I've been in that boat a couple times, too. It's frustrating. So, until they can fix the synch failures (the real root of the problem), I've been doing all my updates in little stages. I make some simple parent playlists (empty) and do a quick synch. Then I drag the files into those playlists and do the big synch. If that's successful, then I do the fine-tuning work on the playlists and perform a third synch. I know that I shouldn't even HAVE to do this, but hey, there's a reason it's called "beta".


Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

It'd be nice if we could get a debug version of Emplode that'd kindly cough up a core file (or whatever Windows equivalent exists) when it blows itself up.

I'd be willing to run that ...and do my damndest to cause Emplode failures -- as it'd generate cores for development to analyze.

Any chance of this, or am I smoking crack?

-- Bleys

"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca

until they can fix the synch failures (the real root of the problem)

... the USB synch failures ....

I have been using the serial synch from the start, and apart from some early problems (rapidly fixed by Mike) have not had any real problems. It really does seem tied to USB access. I just changed my philosophy to preparing my RIPs in the evening, setting up a sync and then leaving it to run overnight. It's all these hasty types rushing to download 20 Gb with USB .....

You could turn on logging (options menu) in Emplode to generate a log file for the interaction with the player during a download. This would help Mike recover the sequence of error; but these are *BIG* files and take a lot of time to analyse.

I suspect that they have enough on their cans already without having to wade through a bombardment of gi-normous log files from willing volunteers

It really does seem tied to USB access.

Rob, you're wrong: Serial also falls over! Only not as quickly as USB, but it is instable too!
As said earlier, I had about a Gig of MP3s waiting for more space on empeg. After adding the new disk, I set up emplode to push an initial 500MB into Emma. Well, USB fell over quickly; after some 75MB. Serial looked much more stable: after 11 hours of pumping MP3s it was still alive. I left it alone with an estimated 2 hours to go, expecting it to finish without any trouble. WRONG

Upon return home, the serial link too had failed, taking W98 along with it. The emplode window was still there. Also emplode's error window, but the crash had taken all contents with it. Only cycling power brought back W98 and Emma too was so confused she needed a boot. Thus, I cannot report any error messages. It may well be the same error reported elsewhere on this board (can't find it right now) on a total Windows and Emma crash. As usual all MP3s ended up in 'unattached': synching fell over only 3 MP3's short of 533MB.

I agree, 500MB of MP3s is pushing it. But from the experience I believe that the bug is not confined to USB. I bet it is related to PC resources. With USB running at 8.5 times the speed of serial, it is just more susceptible to the problems.

I hope the empeg team hasn't given up on this problem now that W2000 seems more forgiving. I'd hate to upgrade to W2000 (My 2-yr old BIOS needs an update, but Dell don't want to do it -- how's that for support ). Besides, the empeg folks' marketing plans for Mark-2 may be seriously affected if emplode only works with W2000.

note for Mike:
Can you please send me the new USB drivers? See my e-mails on this to suppor and yourself

Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

I'd be willing to ( . .) do my damndest to cause Emplode failures.

If you want to try: you can easily create the infamous 0x800703e4 errors, by starting a synch while Audiocatalyst is ripping at full speed. Synching fails nine out of ten times, then. Keep trying, though: once every so often, emplode does manage to retrieve the playlist from Emma. The errors seem to happen during any of emplode 'stages' (whatever they are). I've seen stage 1,2,4,5, and 7 if I remember correctly.

As the error is not confined to USB usage (see my 'Not just a USB error' post, above), I believe it is caused by load problems of emplode under W98. With USB pumping at a rate of 91.5KB/sec, emplode is just more vulnerable for the errors then serial links.

Also, with scanners, printers, and external HDD's happily pumping megafiles of data over USB routinely, it can't be USB by itself.


Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

so few people complain about this nasty emplode error
Well, I've seen these two threads ( . . ) updated almost daily.
Yes, but with 400 empegs out in the wild, and most (??) people running W98, I'd expect many more persons to post their experiences. Only a dozen or so participate in the thread and not all of them have even gotten the error

I haven't even gotten that particular error.
How much do you manage to upload (MP3s, I mean)? Or is succesful uploading possibly machine related?
My 2-yr old PC is a Pentium II, running at 333MHz. I get 108kbps on serial and 915 kbps using USB (assuming 10 comms bits per byte).
I can do up to 3 albums at once (150 MB), most of the time.

. . , and I still try to contribute something useful once in a while
Yes we've noticed you joining. Nice to have you on-board.

----------
BTW: Have you ever noticed that emplode can automatically create a playlist entry from a Windows directory name?
Right click a directory with MP3's in Windows and select 'copy'. Then make the (empty) destination window in emplode active (the one on the right hand side), and select 'paste' from the menu-bar. Emplode creates a new playlist *and* copies the MP3s into it. It doesn't always work.

Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

> Yes, but with 400 empegs out in the wild, and most (??) people running W98
> I'd expect many more persons to post their experiences.

This isn't a universal problem (pardon the pun). If everyone was experiencing problems to the extent that you are, the support mailbox would be full of complaints every day! Fact is, not everyone is affected by this problem - I HOPE that most people are not affected.

That doesn't reduce the priority of fixing this bug. You're right that we can't go to consumer Release One until this is nailed down, and the intention is for Mark 2 to ship with a non-beta release.

Rob

the intention is for Mark 2 to ship with a non-beta release

Thanks for the assurance. With all the good news on W2000, I started to doubt your support for good(?) old(!) W98.

In the mean time, I'm uploading my albums to good(!) old(?) empeg everyday, although most attempts take 3-4 tries because of the infamous memory errors. Will let you know if the new USB drivers make any difference

Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

Mike, any chance you can re-arrange the sequence of updating that takes place within the synch process? When emplode fails during the file transfers, it hasn't applied any playlist maintenance yet and takes all tediously entered details down the drain. If playlists in empeg were updated before the tricky file transfers, it would be much more simple to recover.

I've uploaded an emplode update to the interim updates section of the website that does this. I don't believe it will cause any problems but it may show strange diagnostics on the serial port if you play a playlist with non-existant items in it. You can get rid of them by synchronising again.

http://www2.empeg.com/upgrades/test/interim/

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

I suspect that they have enough on their cans already without having to wade through a bombardment of gi-normous log files from willing volunteers

Gi-normous? Huge-antic? Sounds like something a MSTie might say.

Seriously, though, one shouldn't have to send the whole file to the developers, just the last bit before it crashed. In theory.

(I want to know where this "Theory" place is, and move there. Everything works in theory.)

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

it may show strange diagnostics on the serial port if you play a playlist with non-existent items in it
I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. I plan to continue using USB (at least until the synch issue is fully resolved ). Is USB too affected when I play (MP3=sound?) something on Emma??

Anyhow, I'll try this version and will let you know how I fare.
Your responsiveness is appreciated, again. Thanks


Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

>>it may show strange diagnostics on the serial port if you play a playlist with non-existent items in it
>I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.

It's nothing to worry about. What he means is this:

If you are running the Empeg and it gets an error (any error during regular playback mode, not just the missing file problem he mentioned), it sends some diagnostic text to the serial port. Just a short ASCII text error message.

It does this whether or not you're using the USB port. If you have a piece of terminal software running, and it's connected to the serial port, you can see it scroll by on the screen.

If you don't have a terminal program running, the bits from the messages clog up the serial connector and you have to clean it out with alcohol and a q-tip. The bits are very small, so it takes a long time before you have to clean it. I wouldn't worry about it, though.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

If the ASCII characters clog up the connector they fall out into your car and it gradually fills up with invisible ASCII characters. First a puddle in the drivers footwell, then if you leave the player running for long enough without opening the doors then they will get as high as your head. Most ASCII characters are harmless but don't breath in the non-printable ones. They will displace oxygen of course so if the car fills up totally then you will probably suffocate.

This is why we recommend only running the developer version if you need to - it generates lots more ASCII characters.

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

Fixing this bug is very difficult since we've only managed to provoke one of our machines here into suffering from it. It seems to be very OS and chipset or motherboard specific.

I've got a version of emplode that appears to solve the problem on that machine and I'm currently looking for guinea pigs^W^Wtesters who suffer from the problem, can reproduce it on demand and are willing to do some serious testing this afternoon/evening (GMT). Email [email protected] if you are interested and meet the criteria. :) If all goes well then I'll release an interim fix ASAP.

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

I guess this problem isn't as serious as people made it sound - judging from the fact that Mike fixed it (fingers crossed) last week and so far only one person has asked for the fixed version!

Total feedback so far: zero

Rob

Well, I haven't had any results back from testing but I'm going to release it anyway. You'll find it on the interim upgrades page at http://www2.empeg.com/upgrades/test/interim/.

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

Rob,

I don't think that you are being completely fair here.

Mac asked for people who were able to do 'extensive testing' 'this afternoon'. I am one of the people who is suffering from this bug, but I don't have time at the moment (currently on assignment in Barcelona) to test the fix 'extensively'.

Now that it's released I'll try it a bit when I get back (should be wednesday) and let you know what happens.

Cheers,

Paul.

Paul Haigh, 6GB, Blue
Reg: 4120 - Serial 00254

isn't as serious as people made it sound - judging from the fact that Mike fixed it (fingers crossed) last week and so far only one person has asked for the fixed version! Total feedback so far: zero

Hey Rob, that's a bit too fast!
I had other difficulties that needed resolving that very Thursday when you asked volunteers. Got no answer when I asked for the trial version Thursday night. Would have helped gladly as I am confronted with the error continuously.

For example, I ripped 9 CD's over the week-end. Emplode fell over 11 times before I gave up and used serial to pump them across (Sunday night and the better part of today). Will test the new release tonight and will let you know if it is any better.

Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

Even though I never got this bug on my system (and therefore couldn't test it for you), I'm still curious as to what you think the cause of the bug might have been. Is it something about the USB drivers or what?

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

haven't had any results back from testing ( . . ) I'm going to release it anyway

Mike, thanks for releasing. I believe the errors are gone.
I threw everything at it that's on my lists of (assumed) tricks to prevent the infamous errors viz:
- setting up and editing multi-level playlists, before inserting MP3s into the lists
- entering MP3s twice, deleting the double entries immediately afterwards and adding more in other playlists
- setting up a large amount of files to transfer (I gave it about 500MB tonight)
in short anything else than dragging a single playlist into emplode and synching before applying any maintenance. In addition:
- running (ripping) AudioCatalyst while synching!

Especially AC and Emplode fighting for resources used to be a certain manner to cause a crash.

The Good News
Emplode/Emma didn't crash at all. Emplode pumped about 100GB over to Emma, with AC ripping a full CD without error. I haven't managed to transfer that much in one go over USB, in months.

The Bad News
The process became terribly slow though: one disk write (rattle in Emma) every 3-5 seconds; Windows taking 20-30 seconds to just open the Start menu. This may have been one of the usual W98 instabilities, that has nothing to do with emplode or USB use, though. I killed W98 in the end; Emplode/Emma are now checking disk integrity. You'll have to wait for results from others to make sure that it is just W98 tying itself into a knot. I'll try it more later this week.

The synch failures have definitely been eliminated. Congratulations. What did you do? Was it USB resources or emplode/Emma logic?

Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

Even though I never got this bug on my system (and therefore couldn't test it for you), I'm still curious as to what you think the cause of the bug might have been. Is it something about the USB drivers or what?

I believe it is something to do with the low level USB support in Windows 98 in conjunction with the hardware/firmware USB support on some motherboards. This explains why it happens only on Windows 98 and only on some machines.

In the end I noticed that whilst one operation failed the USB continued working well enough to stop the synchronisation process and restart the player. It then dawned on me that waiting a little while and then repeating the request would probably work too, and it did. This is the solution employed in the latest version of emplode.

There is a limit on the number of times it retries so if the error occurs again then I'd be interested in seeing a log file.

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

Got no answer when I asked for the trial version Thursday night.

I think there may be a problem with your email system. I sent you several emails on Thursday night, one of which contained the new version of emplode. I also sent several chase up emails. These left our mail server so must have arrived at one of your MX hosts. Have you received any email from me recently?

(I would have sent this in private email, but obviously this may not have worked :-)

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

I think there may be a problem with your email system. I sent you several emails on Thursday night, one of which contained the new version of emplode. I also sent several chase up emails.

I recently corresponded with Henno via direct e-mail and had no problems.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything. In the past, I've seen problems crop up that were specific to the communication between one pair of e-mail servers. For instance, a couple years ago, I ran into a problem where my ISP's mail server refused to talk to one of my friend's ISP's mail servers. But he could send and receive mail from anywhere else in the world just fine. And I could do the same. And in fact, the problem only happened unidirectionally- he could send mail to me, I just couldn't send mail to him. The odd part was that my ISP kept re-trying for two days before bouncing the message back to me, so I never knew there was a problem until it was too late.

Someday, I'd like to see a piece of technology that actually works correctly all the time.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Have you received any email from me recently?

Nope
There must be something seriously wrong then. I'll contact you directly via e-mail (with back-up answer address )

Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

There must be something seriously wrong then. I'll contact you directly via e-mail (with back-up answer address )

Just in case anyone is interested it appears that emails sent in a certain way from empeg made Henno's anti-spam features junk the email. I've now altered our mail configuration and this shouldn't happen again.

I apologise to Henno for accusing him of having a faulty email system. :)


--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)

I apologise to Henno for accusing him of having a faulty email system. :)

Even better is that this confirms that spam protection works

(Who wished there was technology that worked ?)

Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

Even better is that this confirms that spam protection works

Not really, a spammer can easily ensure that the envelope From address matches the email header From address (or possibly just that the envelope From address is valid). Maybe some of them just aren't clueful enough :)

--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)