A f_cking paperclip.. To the brainiac at Empeg towers that decided it would be really cool to stick the reset button so far down inside the Karma you needed a special instrument to reach it, I would like to congratulate you on the stupidest design mistake of 2003.

Thanks to the wonderful lack of being able to get to the reset button with a paperclip and the fact that this damn player locks up ALL THE TIME, I now have a dead Karma.

When the player locks up and you are not able to reset it for a length of time, it seems that the hard drive fails. I don't know if it's heat related or what but to say that I'm pissed would be an understatement. I have handled this player like it was a freaking egg and been so careful with it and now it's failed because of crappy firmware and an unreachable reset button.

I've seen other people have exactly this same problem where the player locks up and they are not able to reset it and upon reboot, the drive is toast. It sure would be nice if the Karma could recover a little more gracefully from these lockups, even if it means powering down, rebooting or whatever. Anything is better than a toasted hard drive in a $300.00 player.

I've had this player less than a month. It's going to be interesting to see how DNNA handles repair/exchange. If they will not do an advance replacement, you can prepare for another tirade. I'm leaving on a 30 hour car trip next weekend and I expect to have a Karma to take with me. I paid for a player, not a player that constantly has to be reset and one that only works right when the stars are in the right alignment.

Mine suffered the same fate. When I contacted support they said since it was less than 30 days I should return it to the place of purchase. I got it from amazon so I contected them and they sent me a new player overnight and a prepaid shipping label to return the old one.

Did you install the 1.25 firmware update ? I have had zero lockups or problems with 1.25.

I don't think it's uncommon to locate a reset hole like this it just really sucks in this case because of frequent lockups with the original firmware.

Ive had mine less than 30 days but I bought it from an individual off of Ebay so returning it to him is not going to be an option.

And yea, I had 1.25 installed. That did stop SOME of the lockups but there were still a lot of them. I use the Karma every day, 1-2 hours a day and it seems like it locked up 2-3 times a week.

For a while I had a paperclip stuck on my headphone cable but I removed it because I had went about a week without a lockup and didn't feel like looking for it when I was going out. I figured "It will be okay." I get about 2 miles into my 5 mile walk and it locks up so there I am 2.5-3 miles from home with no way to reset this thing. So I have to listen to the hard drive spin up and down and up and down and up and down (You get the picture) while I made my way back home.

To clarify something.. I said that it went a week without locking up, thats not exactly true. It went a week without locking up and being able to recover. Its been giving me the hard drive "Click 'O Death" over and over and then it would either skip to the next song or skip a bunch of songs and start playing again.

Something that just dawned on me was the last 3 lockups Ive had have all been on the newest music I had installed on the drive.

Click 'O Death

It's not supposed to do that. Mine doesn't at least.

I think you're noticing with your newest songs simply because as time is going by, your drive is getting more and more f*cked up. My player has only been paper clipped once and I run it all day at work. For the record, it has FLAC, MP3 VBR and 320k CBR files on it. Usually it's in full shuffle mode.

Maybe the drive was on the way out from so many lockups with the 1.07 software.

I had the exact same problem I would be walking and it would freeze then I would have to listen to it click the rest of the way. After that happened a few times I started carrying a paper clip but have stopped since 1.25 came out.

Could be.. it still sucks for something that is only 28 days old. Depending on how well DNNA handles the RMA stuff will be the deciding factor if I keep the Karma or not. If they jerk me around and won't do advance replacement (Which it looks like they dont based off of what Ive seen at RioCentral) then I'll probably just go buy another player and sell this one when the new one comes back.


It's a shame too because I like the Karma. I think it's far superior to the iPod but the difference is that the iPod is dependable. I never once had a lockup with my iPod and the thing just worked. The Karma, I am always afraid of what it's going to do and IM scared to death about dropping it for fear of hard drive failure.

I've seen too many horror stories on the forums about Karma failures and wanted to avoid being one of them and now I am. Ive got a $300.00 paperweight sitting on my desk and Im kinda pissed about it. Bottom line, tho, is that I wont be making a 30 hour drive next week without some sort of MP3 player, be it a Karma, iPod, iRiver or something.

When the player locks up and you are not able to reset it for a length of time, it seems that the hard drive fails.

When we get your player back we'll examine it to find out what happened, but it sounds to me more as if the drive failure was the cause of the lockup, not the result.

Peter

So to clarify the firmware DOES NOT lock up all the time (if ever). The first version that shipped did have a stability issue that affected some people quite badly but this was completely resolved with v1.25.

Secondly, a lock up CANNOT kill the hard drive. However, a failing hard drive CAN cause a lockup.

I think you have this all backwards, and before you say it, the fact that your hard drive failed does not make us a bunch of tossers. As car player customers are well aware, a small percentage of hard drives always fail within their first few weeks of operation. As a rough estimate from the number of Karmas we have manufactured so far, I'd guess we must have several hundred failures by now. As an interesting point of reference, I'm informed that Rio's return rates are the lowest in the industry.

Finally the hardware was NOT designed at "empeg towers", although requiring a paperclip to access a hard reset switch is not exactly unusual. Recovering from a hard lock up is by definition impossible without a hardware input - in this case, the reset switch. We already have a software watchdog.

Finally finally, I wouldn't have thought you would have any problem getting the player replaced under warranty, even if you bought it on eBay. If you have difficulties with a support droid just ask to get the issue escalated.

Rob

Perhaps I do have it backwards, however Im not the only one. I've seen several people on Riovolution have the same scenario as I have. My thoughts on the locks ups killing the hard drive being that continuously spinning up and down just causes the hard drive to puke. If that's not feasible then it's probably under the scenario you gave where the drive caused the player to puke and not the firmware.

Have I had lockups under 1.25? Yes. Can I attribute those to the firmware? Under your explanation, no. Could have been a bad hard drive causing it. However, the unit never had any problem syncing and adding music and I did that right up until the thing died so I dunno.

About the reset thing, I can appreciate the fact that you need a hardware reset. I just think that having it a little more accessible might have been a better idea. Perhaps a small recessed reset bottom on the back somewhere.Maybe there isn't room anywhere for that.

Finally, I'm glad to hear that none of your people were behind this reset button blunder. I guess the original designer figured people wouldn't need the reset button thus it's placement.

Finally, since I'm sure you have an idea of the number of units shipped/sold, Rob, do you think the failure rate so far, given that the player is so new, has been acceptable?

I have no idea what the failure rate is - I'm just extrapolating from the number of units built so far. Had there been several hundred failures (and I'm not saying there have been) I would not be concerned. That said I have no idea how many units have sold through, I simply observed that the last unit I pulled from our retail warehouse was #23045.

Rob

Ah.. okay.. my misunderstanding then.

Well, I just got off the phone with "Brian" (Never met a Brian with an indian accent before) getting an RMA together for the unit. Interestingly enough, the warehouse where my unit is being returned to is about 15 minutes from my home.

Unfortunately Brian informed me that the warehouse has no units in stock to replace mine as they're being moved from one warehouse to the other so best case scenario for me getting a replacement is 7-8 working days which means the replacement won't be coming until after Ive left on my trip.

Looks like Ill be shopping for an MP3 player this evening.

I'd consider getting a flash player if you don't like the risk of HDD failure.

Rob

I've seen several people on Riovolution have the same scenario as I have.

The thing is that the happy people won't post anything as they don't need to. People complaining about something however are much more likely to post and they also will be more prominent. Pick some random product which is in wide circulation and then search for it. Chances are you will find a lot of horror stories even if the product is great.

It's a bit unfortunate however that you're one of the unlucky few.

I never once had a lockup with my iPod and the thing just worked.

A friend of mine who uses his iPod to play music at our roleplaying sessions has his lock up at least every other session. This is under pretty heavy use, where a new song/playlist is being selected every 5-10 minutes. And this is with the newest updates from Apple for his second gen unit.

So yes, iPods lock up too.

So yes, iPods lock up too.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. My iPod is a 1st-gen 5GB unit and it locks up very often. Apple's reset doesn't require a paper clip though.

I dont mind "risk." Risk goes along with anything you do. However, I dont expect things that I handle like they're going to explode in my hands to fail in 28 days either.

I dont mind "risk." Risk goes along with anything you do. However, I dont expect things that I handle like they're going to explode in my hands to fail in 28 days either.

You don't mind the risk of a hard drive failing PROVIDED the hard drive does not in fact fail.

OK, I think I'll find something else to do now.

Rob

I dont expect things that I handle like they're going to explode in my hands to fail in 28 days either.

It's better that it fail before the warranty's up, isn't it?

Back to the original direction of the thread: I at least echo the sentiment that resetting is an awkward process. I've just moved so I don't know where anything is in my house, and when I would get a lockup I usually would scramble about the house for five minutes looking for something that would work. A push pin is too thick, but that doesn't matter, as it wouldn't go the six inches in that it takes to trip the button (some sort of tardis karma thing there). Yeah, the reset button should be hard to use, but not that hard.

For Karma 2, put the button behind a hole if you want, but make the hole wide enough for the tip of a pen or something, and don't set it four meters into the machine.

The thing is that the happy people won't post anything as they don't need to.

On that note I would just like to comment that my player has run rock solid for the month I have had it and I am very happy with it.

I am sorry however that you have not had such luck. Hopefully you will with the new one you get.

dittto. never had to use a paperclip either. had some initial playback issues, seem to be resolved with 1.25 though.

Oh well.. nothing I can do about it now but wait. I faxed my proof of payment to DNNA yesterday and am still waiting for an email to confirm my RMA number is now active so I can send the player back.

If it makes you feel any better, check out all the ipods being sold as "broken" on ebay. Just type in "broken ipod" or "ipod for parts" you will be amazed at how many come up.

Or search google for "broken ipod" and take your pick of the 67000 sob stories.

Well, 2 days in and no reply from DNNA on my RMA request. I followed their instructions and faxed the receipt to them and was told I would get an email from the approving my RMA later on in the day. It's now been two and I havent heard anything.

I'd call but unfortunately I have lost my voice due to a cold. I did send an email to support but that hasnt received a response either.

RMA update.. just got back in from out of town and I expected to find a shiny new Karma waiting for me since DNNA had mine since the 19th. Unfortunately, nothing. Called in and spoke with "Melanie" who informed me that the warehouse doesnt have any Karmas to use for RMAs and she could give me no time frame as to when they will have them. She told me I should call back in a week and check on my RMA's status.

Sure am glad I bought another player to replace this one, I would like to roll the other Karma and recoup some of my money tho