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#239741 - 01/11/2004 19:47 Scary image for U.S. citizens...
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
A day late for Halloween, but scary enough that I thought it was worth posting anyway.



*AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!*
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- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#239742 - 01/11/2004 19:57 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tonyc]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
That was the best UI they could come up with? Come on.
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Bitt Faulk

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#239743 - 01/11/2004 20:01 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US

It looks like you've accidentally voted for a Democrat. Would you like to change your vote to Bush?


Attachments
239005-clip.png (133 downloads)

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Bitt Faulk

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#239744 - 01/11/2004 20:47 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
mcomb
pooh-bah

Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
Quote:
It looks like you've accidentally voted for a Democrat. Would you like to change your vote to Bush?

LOL, can somebody pass me the monitor wipes.
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EmpMenuX - ext3 filesystem - Empeg iTunes integration

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#239745 - 01/11/2004 23:17 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tonyc]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
There's just no excuse for [censored] like that. The self checkin's in airports these days are a good example for them to look at. GRRR... bad user interface is so angering.
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|| loren ||

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#239746 - 02/11/2004 11:08 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: loren]
mschrag
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
I couldn't believe it. At my polling place this morning, when you select a candidate, it turns red and puts a huge red X next to it. Basically exactly the opposite feedback for a user. My immediate reaction was "oh crap -- is this thing somehow backwards from what I'm thinking??". Come on, people, this is NOT that hard of a UI to design. Would a big green check mark kill you?

Anyway, I called my local election board and complained. Interestingly they had representatives from the voting machine company there when I called, so hopefully my gripe got passed along.

And last but not least, have a look at the question (this is actually what appears in the booth) for a new constitutional amendment:
Shall Section 6 of Article II of the Constitution of Virginia be amended to provide that members of the United States House of Representatives, Virginia Senate, and House of Delegates who are serving in the year following a new United States Census, when decennial redistricting is required, shall complete their terms of office and continue to represent the district from which they were elected for that term of office and that any vacancy during the term shall be filled from the same district that elected the member whose term is being filled?

That took me 3 read-throughs to understand what in the world they're asking. This is ridiculous. I have a constitutional amendment too -- it says "You shouldn't be allowed to write sentences that are 7 lines long and require a Juris Doctor to understand if you want regular people to interpret and vote on them."

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#239747 - 02/11/2004 12:27 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: mschrag]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, in reality, it's just a summary. The entire amendment is probably a lot longer and clearer through being more well fleshed-out. After all, it's not like they provide you with a full platform for each of the office candidates. Maybe they should.
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Bitt Faulk

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#239748 - 02/11/2004 13:20 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14478
Loc: Canada
"Congressional gerrymandering will only take effect the next time the affected seat is up for regular electiion at the end of the current full term of office."

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#239749 - 02/11/2004 13:59 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
mschrag
pooh-bah

Registered: 09/09/2000
Posts: 2303
Loc: Richmond, VA
Quote:
Well, in reality, it's just a summary

Yeah, I'm sure the full amendment is 800 pages and has a rider on it to legalize dolphin molesting, but surely they can do better than that (.... "and don't call me shirley")

Quote:
After all, it's not like they provide you with a full platform for each of the office candidates. Maybe they should.

Not a bad idea actually. In one of the races there was an independent that I had not heard of. Definitely my fault for not keeping up with it, but it would be nice if there was a political overview of each candidate available in the booth.

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#239750 - 02/11/2004 14:20 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: mschrag]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Yeah, I've spent all morning researching the non-partisan votes on my ballot. It'd be nice if it were easier to find out what they were.

And, you know, I feel guilty about voting a straight-party ticket, but while Democrats sometimes don't match my views, Republicans never do. I suppose I could vote libertarian in some races, but I don't agree with Libertarians much more than Republicans. I agree with libertarians not infrequently, though.
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Bitt Faulk

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#239751 - 02/11/2004 15:02 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tonyc]
SuperQ
addict

Registered: 13/06/2000
Posts: 429
Loc: Berlin, DE
I'm so glad my state uses simple fill-in-bubble optical scan systems. Nothing wrong with simple technology
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(No, I don't actually hate Alan Cox)

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#239752 - 02/11/2004 17:27 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tonyc]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Strange, my electronic ballot looked nothing like that image. It was sufficiently simple and attractive. I got through it in about 10 seconds.
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Matt

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#239753 - 02/11/2004 17:32 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: Dignan]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Nothing strange about that. Each county/state seems to be free to use whatever electronic machines they want. You must be in an area that has ones with a good UI. I just hope that UI translates to an error-free voting experience, unlike the woman from West Palm beach who was on CNN. She voted Kerry and state Democrats, and when she got to the review screen (after the vote was already cast) it showed Bush and state Republicans. Just like the funny Diebold video (minus the shrinking Kerry button, I'd assume.) She called an attorney and they allegedly removed the faulty votes and let her re-vote.
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- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#239754 - 02/11/2004 17:45 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tonyc]
jmwking
old hand

Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 770
Loc: Washington, DC metro
I had an electronic voting experience. I'm in MD, using a Diebold machine with no paper trail. Apparently, according to MD state law and our elections person, we are only allowed to use federally approved voting equipment and there is no federally approved e-voting printer.

It was a very straightforward ballot, albeit using Xs rather than checks (I'm color blind, and so can't comment on the colors).

When I was finished, I was presented with a summary page which was concise, and I had a very clear opportunity to either modify my selections or cast them, no attorneys needed.

Now whether there will be any shenanigans between my casting and the counting, I can't say.

-jk

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#239755 - 02/11/2004 17:48 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: jmwking]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I vote on paper with a marksense system and I still feel nervous. There's some sort of automated reader and I have no idea if it's doing its job properly. It'd be nice if it'd print me out a receipt or something.
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Bitt Faulk

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#239756 - 02/11/2004 17:57 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
That automated reader is actually a big win. If you accidentally overvote (e.g., fill in the bubble for Bush and Kerry), then it will reject it and shove it back out at you. Likewise, it will detect if the paper is too thick, making it harder to stuff the ballot box.

Sure, the tallies are kept inside the machine, and some of the older ones don't seem to be terribly reliable. But, the original piece of paper that you filled out will remain, no matter how it's mistabulated. If something goes wrong, they've got your original paper to go back to and recount, either electronically or manually. In short, a precinct-based optical scanner is the best voting technology we currently have.

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#239757 - 02/11/2004 18:03 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: DWallach]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I know. I'd just like a confirmation.
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Bitt Faulk

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#239758 - 02/11/2004 18:16 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Greetings!

It'd be nice if it'd print me out a receipt or something.

I do not know why, but that struck me as amusing. Maybe too many Circuit City / Best Buy stories. I can almost visualize returning to the polling place in the next few weeks... "Hi, I would like to return the president-elect. He is defective. I have my receipt right here..."
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#239759 - 02/11/2004 18:21 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: pgrzelak]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
LOL
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Bitt Faulk

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#239760 - 02/11/2004 18:25 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
There's some sort of automated reader and I have no idea if it's doing its job properly.


Which makes me think.

Our county, too, simply has a scantron-style form (fill in the bubble next to the name). But it occurs to me that the scantron form is read into... you guessed it, a computer. And that computer's results get tallied into... what? Another computer. Right?

Essentially, the entire voting system has been working on computers for a very long time, right?

So what's the big complaint about the Diebold machines? It's just eliminating one layer of potential error. Everyone who thinks that "all computer voting machines are bad because computers have glitches" is forgetting that even the paper votes get tallied into computers. They just don't see that part of it.
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Tony Fabris

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#239761 - 02/11/2004 19:16 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tfabris]
jmwking
old hand

Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 770
Loc: Washington, DC metro
It's the lack of a paper trail that worries people (or at least in MD). The bubbles, the punched ballots - these are all items that you can recount at some level (albeit it with over-votes and hanging chads). The Diebold machine (without paper trail) leaves no way to recount the original votes.

-jk

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#239762 - 02/11/2004 19:28 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: jmwking]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Yeah, but if they miscount by, say, 5%, who's gonna know to start a recount to begin with?
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Bitt Faulk

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#239763 - 02/11/2004 19:52 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: tfabris]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
Quote:
Essentially, the entire voting system has been working on computers for a very long time, right?

So what's the big complaint about the Diebold machines?


The complaint goes something like this. Indeed, once the ballot is scanned, it's all computers after that. However, in the event that the scanner had some kind of malfunction, you still have the original paper to go back to. This allows you to rescan it, or even count it by hand. You can go back to a paper record that the voter held in their hands and take a completely independent, perhaps higher cost for higher accuracy, path toward getting the votes tallied. The existence of that independent path lowers the absolute requirement on the correctness of the primary path. When you go with an all-electronic system (from Diebold or anybody else), then you give up on that independent path.

Incidentally, Bitt, no receipt for you. If you had a receipt, then you'd be able to use it to prove to a third-party how you voted, thus enabling bribery or coercion. However, you raise a good question about when you're supposed to do a recount. In California, they have a mandatory recount of 1% of the paper ballots to make sure they're statistically the same as the primary election results. If the test recount fails, then you have to recount everything.

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#239764 - 02/11/2004 19:58 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: DWallach]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I don't need for it to have my name on it or anything. I just want to see that the machine saw the same thing I intended to mark. The fact that it spits it out directly after I put in my ballot (and, hopefully, that the candidates shown match the ones I picked) is enough. After that, it'd be completely disposable, and if it's unidentifiable and disposable, then it can't be used to prove who I voted for.
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Bitt Faulk

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#239765 - 02/11/2004 20:01 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Hmm. I suppose I could have had the coercer require me to vote in an odd manner such that it was statistically unlikely for me to be able to find the exact match in the trashcan. So each vote could be on a separate piece of paper.

Or you could just have a private display with no physical receipt, but just a double-check.
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Bitt Faulk

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#239766 - 02/11/2004 20:38 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
I must admit, I am rather pleased to be reading in the headlines about "long lines" at the polls. It is good to see people voting.
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#239767 - 02/11/2004 20:43 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: pgrzelak]
BAKup
addict

Registered: 11/11/2001
Posts: 552
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:
"Hi, I would like to return the president-elect. He is defective. I have my receipt right here..."


You owe me a monitor and a can of ginger ale.
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--Ben
78GB MkIIa, Dead tuner.

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#239768 - 02/11/2004 20:55 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: wfaulk]
mcomb
pooh-bah

Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
Quote:
Or you could just have a private display with no physical receipt, but just a double-check.


It seems like the easiest method would be for the machine to print out a receipt for you to verify. If you are happy with it then you feed it back into the machine. If you don't feed it back then your vote doesn't count. That way there is a paper trail if needed and a hand recount of the receipts can be done for a small fraction of the ballots to ensure the machines are working properly.

It seems so simple to me, I don't understand how we ended up with the Diebold system as it stands.

-Mike
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EmpMenuX - ext3 filesystem - Empeg iTunes integration

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#239769 - 02/11/2004 21:04 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: mcomb]
oliver
addict

Registered: 02/04/2002
Posts: 691
I just voted, and I’m really glad they didn't replace my districts voting machines with the e-machines. The ones at my local voting place were the really old, huge metal boxes that you stand inside of, and toggle levers and pull a huge handle.

Very simple, with a paper trail, no computers involved at all. I really wish each state used the same equipment. It’s really scary each and every state is allowed to pick and choose which corrupt voting machine they want to use. In my opinion computers shouldn’t be trusted with counting votes, ok well maybe programmers shouldn’t be trusted writing the software that counts the votes.
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#239770 - 02/11/2004 21:20 Re: Scary image for U.S. citizens... [Re: oliver]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
How is this for an absentee ballot...
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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