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#248873 - 11/02/2005 16:44 Re: Redacted Military History... [Re: wfaulk]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
USA, 1783?

Were drugs smuggled during the time of *those* Georges?

IIRC, Maturin got his laudanum OTC.
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#248874 - 11/02/2005 16:53 Re: Redacted Military History... [Re: jimhogan]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
My two guesses: Middle East, 1914-18 (think T.H. Lawrence) and Southern Africa 1899-1902 (Boer War).

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#248875 - 11/02/2005 17:04 Re: Redacted Military History... [Re: jimhogan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
I'll be honest with you. It was a total guess based on your sense of irony. Also, my knowledge of the history of illicit substances is not that great.

Hmm. Seems that the first drugs law in the US was a New York state alcohol prohibition in 1845. Then localized opium-smoking prohibitions in the 1870s, mostly directed at Chinese immigrants. The first national prohibition seems to have been 1914's Harrison Tax Act, outlawing opiates and cocaine.

Of course, the issue was trafficking, which may have been illegal elsewhere....
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Bitt Faulk

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#248876 - 11/02/2005 17:18 Re: Redacted Military History... [Re: wfaulk]
schofiel
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
So it could still be Civil War vintage...
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One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015

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#248877 - 11/02/2005 17:39 Re: Redacted Military History... [Re: schofiel]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Well, I figure that the US is probably a pretty good bellwether for drugs laws about the world. At the same time, the earliest real drugs law (I don't think we can count alcohol) was in the 1870s, after the US Civil War (which is what I assume you were referring to), and, in fact, during the period in which we would place the actual Wild West. While I don't think that it's necessary that the veribiage used indicates that the event happened after the Wild West, it'd seem an unlikely choice of terms to label a contemporary event that way. Which probably places this in the 20th century, as it's likely that drugs laws didn't exist until the 1870s and the Wild West itself lasted pretty much to the turn of the century.
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Bitt Faulk

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#248878 - 11/02/2005 19:53 Re: Redacted Military History... [Re: wfaulk]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Quote:
Which probably places this in the 20th century, as it's likely that drugs laws didn't exist until the 1870s and the Wild West itself lasted pretty much to the turn of the century.

This sounds pretty fair. While I have really enjoyed all of the speculation and surmise, I don't want to be a real PITA. I have the unredacted passage in a text file at home and I'll post that either late tonight or in AM. 'Course, if I have to stop the car, I get all the beer.

Oh, FWIW, I think I dropped a *very* opaque clue elsewhere if anybody is thirsty. What I would categorize as something of a turning-point clue.
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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#248879 - 11/02/2005 20:10 Re: Redacted Military History... [Re: julf]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4172
Loc: Cambridge, England
Quote:
think T.H. Lawrence

Ah, T.H. Lawrence! Who could forget his Seven Pillars Of Lady Chatterley?

Peter

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#248880 - 11/02/2005 21:13 Re: Redacted Military History... [Re: peter]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
LOL.

I totally missed that the first time.
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Bitt Faulk

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#248881 - 12/02/2005 07:42 Re: Redacted Military History... [Re: peter]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Quote:
Ah, T.H. Lawrence! Who could forget his Seven Pillars Of Lady Chatterley?

Ahh. The one that caused a scandal both because of the allusions to homosexuality *and* the improper associations across class boundaries?

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#248882 - 13/02/2005 02:10 Re: Redacted Military History... [Re: jimhogan]
jimhogan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
Unredacted:

Even in the supposedly pacified areas of Cochinchina and Annam the French military occupation was purely notional. Memoirs convey a Wild West frontier atmosphere, with European civilians and administrators routinely going armed with Sten guns, and never venturing far without exchanging the latest information on which villages and roads were safe and which should be avoided. In practical terms the French Army controlled only a shifting pattern of invisible islands in the human landscape. The spaces between were roamed not only by the Viet Minh but also by various other armed groups, only some of which had direct connections with either the Communists or the Franco-Vietnamese forces. The wartime activities of the French, Japanese, British, Americans, Nationalist Chinese and Siamese had scattered South-East Asia with weapons and the vacuum following Japan's surrender was exploited by local warlords, drug smugglers, freebooting deserters, and the partisans and ragged militias of many groups and causes.

From THE LAST VALLEY Dien Bien Phu and the French Defeat in Vietnam by Martin Windrow, page 95. Here Windrow describes the situation from around 1946 on as France tries to reestablish its colonial rule in Indochina (leading up this most famous battle/defeat in 1953-54).

Many years ago I read Bernard Fall's Hell in a Very Small Place, considered by many as the definitive book on DBP and cited with reverence by chroniclers of later Vietnam adventures like Michael Herr. So, when I saw Windrow's book I asked my self why I would want to bother. But Windrow's book is in many ways superior. He spends much more time filling in the historical background leading up to the French decision to "call Giap out" (my choice of term).

When I read this passage "Even in the supposedly pacified areas..." I couldn't help thinking of parallels to the current day, and your answers said that there are many more.

The "turning point" clue I mentioned in my last post (I think) was the role of (US-supplied) Fairchild C-119 "Flying Boxcars" at Dien Bien Phu. I remember seeing these interesting planes fly over my suburban home in the early 60s (from Hanscom AFB, or Otis AFB in Massachusetts or maybe Pease in New Hampshire, I don't know). C-119s were provided to the French for DBP by the US and were flown by American pilots of the CIA-owned Civil Air Transport, so, in terms of when the U.S. first had active combatants in Vietnam, 1953 could be considered the year the U.S. entered the war
_________________________
Jim


'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.

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