#277452 - 14/03/2006 19:16
Re: Poker
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
The biggest games are played as "mixed" games, so the world-class players need to know all the games. A common variant is HORSE, which stands for Holdem, Omaha/8, Razz, 7-Stud, and 7-Stud Eight or better Hi/Low split. Lately, 2-7 Triple-Draw Lowball is being played instead of razz. Anyhow, these guys play a complete table orbit of one game, then switch to the next in rotation. It's not good enough to be an expert at one game, though most of them are best in one game.
OK, THAT sounds like fun. I've never played Razz or triple-draw, though I'm familiar with the rules of both. I enjoy playing Omaha/8 as a break from time to time, though I generally only come out a little ahead and I stick to $.01 PL games.
I think I saw HORSE on one site I tried, but I didn't know what it was. UB does not have anything like that- nor does it even have Razz. It does have Triple Draw, but like I said, I really have no desire. I'd give Razz a shot, though I hear it's quite a frustrating game.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#277453 - 14/03/2006 21:54
Re: Poker
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Razz isn't spread much any more, but Triple Draw is catching on. If you want to play Razz, you should pick up Sklansky's book Sklansky on Poker which contains his book on Razz, which is the definitive work on the game. The best Triple Draw instruction in print is the section in Super System 2, but you might be better off with the 2+2 Forums.
Ray Zee's High Low Split Poker for Advanced Players (also a 2+2 book), is the book you need if you want to improve your Omaha/8. You'll improve your game quite a bit if you remember the admonition to "play for low". In these games, you want to "sweep", making a high and a low. Generally, you don't want to play a high-only hand unless it's extremely strong, since it the chances are great you are playing for only half the pot. I'm not a very good split poker player, but Omaha/8 is the next game on my list to study extensively.
Sklansky and others have said repeatedly that it is important to know all the games reasonably well, but you'll probably end up being an expert in just one or two. Because of the current state of poker, being a Holdem expert makes a lot of sense. If you know all the games, though, you can sit in a really soft Omaha/8 game and win for more than you would in a really tough Holdem game, even if you are an expert Holdem player and only a "good" Omaha/8 player. It is the *difference* in player skill that determines the profitability of a game.
Jim
Edited by TigerJimmy (14/03/2006 22:31)
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#277454 - 14/03/2006 22:05
Re: Poker
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Well, all I mean is that cash games give you the opportunity to use detailed opponent information.
In the small and medium-stakes games, you're usually just making the obvious +EV play and not getting too fancy.
You might really enjoy cash games when you've got pokertracker helping you.
Jim
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#277455 - 14/03/2006 22:17
Re: Poker
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Well, here is a quick tip on notes: one thing you'd really like to know is how the opponent plays a flopped monster, like a set, top two, or a straight. Generally speaking, they will always do the same thing. That is a good note to take on everyone. The other thing you want to know is how do they play a big draw (OESD or flush draw) on the flop. Quite often you will find somone who will always slowplay a flopped monster, but always raise big draws. I try to take notes on these things, but otherwise I only make notes if they do something "out of line" with the stereotype that their stats suggest. That would be my beginning advice on notes: how do they play 2pr or a set or bigger, and how do they play a big draw? Recently I was in a hand where my note said "Pumps draws on flop, slowplays top2+ until turn". I made a flush on the turn and this guy raised me on the river when the board paired. Well, he had raised flop, so I *knew* he could not have a set and thus could not have just filled up. I 3-bet the river confidently with my flush even though the board was paired. He had the trips, but no full house, as expected. This kind of note will also keep you from giving free cards. When I have an opponent who always slowplays monsters and always raises draws (this is an amazingly common and easily exploitable pattern), when I have a decent-but-not-great hand like top pair, top kicker, I can 3-bet the flop and lead the turn and know that I'm probably up against just a draw so there is no risk of a turn raise. When they raise the flop, but just call the flop 3-bet and turn lead, then you know they are probably drawing, so you can check-call if the draw comes in on the river and save yourself from being raised. In fact, on this sequence and with this note, if my opponent is very aggressive, I will almost always check the river, because they will bluff their busted draw and I get an extra bet (they would fold the busted draw if I bet the river). Maybe that's too much detail, but notes are helpful.  Jim
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#277456 - 15/03/2006 00:12
Re: Poker
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
You'll improve your game quite a bit if you remember the admonition to "play for low". In these games, you want to "sweep", making a high and a low. Generally, you don't want to play a high-only hand unless it's extremely strong, since it the chances are great you are playing for only half the pot. I'm not a very good split poker player, but Omaha/8 is the next game on my list to study extensively.
Fortunately, this I knew going into the game (having read it on a web site somewhere) and has enabled me to do well enough not to lose money consistently. It's amazing how just knowing something like that (that most people ignore, it seems) can give you an edge. The other thing I learned is not to push A2 too hard if I don't have the high hand because you so often get quartered (people hang on to A2 like hold em players hold on to Ax).
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#277458 - 15/03/2006 01:18
Re: Poker
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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I like writing about it. Teaching always helps you make sure you have your stuff straight in your head. It's probably best if I answer questions, though.
You're also welcome to shadow my play on Party Poker. I'm "Overdoggie".
Jim
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#277459 - 15/03/2006 02:05
Re: Poker
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5543
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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Recently I was in a hand where my note said "Pumps draws on flop, slowplays top2+ until turn". I made a flush on the turn and this guy raised me on the river when the board paired. Well, he had raised flop, so I *knew* he could not have a set and thus could not have just filled up. I 3-bet the river confidently with my flush even though the board was paired. He had the trips, but no full house, as expected. This kind of note will also keep you from giving free cards. When I have an opponent who always slowplays monsters and always raises draws (this is an amazingly common and easily exploitable pattern), when I have a decent-but-not-great hand like top pair, top kicker, I can 3-bet the flop and lead the turn and know that I'm probably up against just a draw so there is no risk of a turn raise. When they raise the flop, but just call the flop 3-bet and turn lead, then you know they are probably drawing, so you can check-call if the draw comes in on the river and save yourself from being raised.Do you have any idea what the above paragraph sounds like to someone (like myself!) who does not play cards at all, who does not know any of the poker rules, much less the vocabulary? "'Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gymbal in the wabe. All mimsy were the borogroves and the mome raths outgrabe..."  I am quite impressed with your accomplishments in this field, even if I don't understand it! tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#277460 - 15/03/2006 02:24
Re: Poker
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31578
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Yeah, but for those who watch Holdem on television like me, it's brilliantly fascinating.
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#277462 - 15/03/2006 03:51
Re: Poker
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Teaching always helps you make sure you have your stuff straight in your head.
Yes it does. I've been teaching a guy at work how to play (he just finished 2nd in a 10 person sng tonight- I was so proud!) and I've certainly straightened my head out a bit. Plus, watching him play makes me realize how some plays that I make look on the ouside.
Quote:
You're also welcome to shadow my play on Party Poker. I'm "Overdoggie"
I might do that- I love to watch people I know play.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#277463 - 16/03/2006 15:32
Re: Poker
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3583
Loc: Columbus, OH
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_________________________
~ John
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#277464 - 16/03/2006 17:29
Re: Poker
[Re: tfabris]
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enthusiast
Registered: 11/06/2003
Posts: 384
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Yeah, what he said. Thanks Jeff & Jim for the conversation!
--Nathan
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#277465 - 17/03/2006 00:00
Re: Poker
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Hmm, that's dissapointing. Thanks for the link, though.
I sort of figured that the law makers would just let the issue alone because it's so popular these days- I guess it's still not popular enough that they feel they'll lose voters.
I wonder how many of them play?
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#277466 - 17/03/2006 00:08
Re: Poker
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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LOL- best comment in that thread:
Quote:
How does this affect the *really* big gambling sites, like NASDAQ and the NYSE?
And best comment from the original article:
Quote:
Major professional sports organizations supported the legislation, including the National Football League and Major League Baseball, saying in a joint statement that sports betting "threatens the integrity of our respective sports."
. . . because when I think of sports, I think integrity.
But at least we can all still play the lottery- after all, it's a game of skill, unlike poker which is completely luck. 
Edited by JeffS (17/03/2006 00:14)
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#277467 - 17/03/2006 00:44
Re: Poker
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31578
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I guess it's still not popular enough that they feel they'll lose voters.
I'm sure their whole reason is the inability to accurately track or collect tax on the winnings, as well as revenue going to companies overseas without being tariffed.
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#277468 - 17/03/2006 10:54
Re: Poker
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
I'm sure their whole reason is the inability to accurately track or collect tax on the winnings, as well as revenue going to companies overseas without being tariffed.
Nah- that's only part of the reason. There is an easy solution to that problem- allow the sites to operate within the U.S. Like I said, at least one site has offered to pay taxes on their revenues if they could move their business here legally.
No doubt taxation is part of it, but if poker weren't illegal in the first place, then taxation wouldn't be a problem. In fact, online sites would be the ideal place to tax poker because it'd be easy to track and audit, unlike home games.
Anyway, it's just frustrating to me because I don't see making online poker illegal as accomplishing anything except making a lot of people lawbreakers- I doubt it will do anything to increase government tax revenue or decrease whatever negative aspects result from the poker playing. A few people (like me, who really does try to follow the law) may stop, but what does that accomplish really?
Oh, and looking closer at the wording in the article, it actually doesn't say anything about making it illegal to play poker online- it only makes the activities of the sites themselves illegal. Which is truly unenforcable and equally as pointless.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#277469 - 17/03/2006 19:17
Re: Poker
[Re: JeffS]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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They can't even stop internet child porn. How are they going to stop online gambling? There is an extremist congressman that has been trying to pass a federal anti-gambling law for years. I forget his name. It seems to me that the WTO ruling should weigh heavily against this ever passing. You have no moral obligation to follow an immoral law. As Augustine said, "Love God, and do as you will." Where would be be if Nelson Mandela, Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King, Jr. followed the laws? Or Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Paine, for that matter? As we discussed in another thread, I consider laws against the "victimless crimes" to be immoral. One does have an obligation (to one's self) not to get caught, however.
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#277470 - 18/03/2006 15:08
Re: Poker
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
It seems to me that the WTO ruling should weigh heavily against this ever passing.
Ummh... The current administration doesn't seem to care a hoot about the WTO, except when it might help their cronies.
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I did hit the nut flush (since we keep talking about it in this thread) and played it as if I were bluffing (threw in a huge bet on the river). Got 2 callers and tripled up. Now THOSE are some implied odds 
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