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#356259 - 15/11/2012 06:00 Re: electric imp [Re: Phoenix42]
julf
veteran

Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Phoenix42
maybe better version of the road sensors that are used today for monitoring speed and surface temp. (How is this done today?)


Standard IP-over-GSM, just as with the systems that monitor street lights, power transformers, and all the other stuff out there.

Disclaimer: one of the companies I am involved in, Viola Systems does that for the smart grid space, and has done it for motorways and other infrastructure.

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#356332 - 19/11/2012 03:24 Re: electric imp [Re: Cris]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: Cris
Originally Posted By: tonyc
They really have to get it right out of the gate, with some big-name manufacturers and some seriously useful features.


Agreed, more than the technology actually working and being very cool without a "killer app" it will be hard to take any hold.

I'd like to automate a few things in my home, and like the idea of just slipping in an EI when I am ready, but what worries me about the idea is that the manufacturer needs to put in a log of redundant electronics in say a light switch on the assumption that at some point someone might want to internet enable it in the future. That to me sounds like an excuse to charge a lot more for a light switch. And it would need to be in everything, already, which is of course impossible.

From a consumer point of view I need to see what this thing can do, and if I were EI marketing team that is what I would be doing right now, reworking existing devices to show the world what it's all about.


Oh we have lots of interesting things - mouse traps, lighting, power control, power monitoring, motion sensors, environmental sensors, irrigation controllers, etc etc. Some of these make more sense with an imp card (eg the mouse trap), some make more sense with an imp integrated (also an option). One reason we're not shouting too much about things is that we're rushed off our feet with all the vendors we're currently working with and so drumming up yet more business hasn't been a priority, though that'll obviously change smile

There are many devices on their way which are imp enabled. Early next year, when the commercial service officially starts, there will be everything from pet feeders, access control, HVAC (very consumer) to elder monitoring (service-based) to parking lot access control (very commercial)... and a lot more inbetween.

None of this working (well, communicating... they still run code without wifi) when the internet is down is not an issue for these applications; the vendors accept this because the systems they were thinking of were already 100% internet-tied too - no loss there.


Edited by altman (19/11/2012 03:38)

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#356333 - 19/11/2012 03:27 Re: electric imp [Re: canuckInOR]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: Dignan
Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.
Originally Posted By: Dignan
we shouldn't make something a little easier because I have a make-shift solution that works in my situation
Make-shift? Touching a couple of buttons on my watch to set the count-down timer is more of a make-shift than buying and programming and paying a monthly fee for a device to send data to the internet so that it can call my cell phone and send me a message when my clothes are dry?

Rube Goldberg would be proud!

I just want to point out that you only do all of that stuff once. So yes, I still say it's easier.

Except for the monthly fee part.


The fees are very reasonable for vendors, though. A vendor can end up paying $1/year for connectivity - low enough to bundle into a BOM.

What they get for the money is much more than they could make themselves - reliable, secure, able to update firmware remotely, connection monitoring, server-side agents, etc etc. Even if you're making 100k devices a year, you're not going to be able to build, operate and maintain a service for a comparable amount...

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#356334 - 19/11/2012 03:35 Re: electric imp [Re: hybrid8]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Sure, but setting up a country-wide infrastructure for these devices to communicate through? Instead of say, an even lower power and lower range alternative that uses a base-station/repeater that connected to the internet via WiFi or ethernet or even cellular modem?

I can't even put into words how absolutely ridiculous I think the idea is. Ugh.


The whole idea of an IoT network isn't stupid; the thing which IMO marks this one out as strange is the ridiculous data rates, though something may have been lost in translation. Max of 1kbit/sec... for what, the fabric or a million devices at once? It's possible this important scale factor has been overlooked in their documentation. The lowest rate of 10 bits per second is unlikely to be useful even for low power applications simply because you need to keep your device powered for a minute to send a header & packet smile

There are whitespace startups like Neul, who are making a robust wide area solution to compete with cell companies, targeted squarely at IoT. This makes a lot of sense, and they have significant data rates... can't wait to see their silicon as a rackmount transceiver is a bit big for me!

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#356335 - 19/11/2012 03:35 Re: electric imp [Re: Roger]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
Originally Posted By: Roger
Originally Posted By: hybrid8
Instead of say, an even lower power and lower range alternative that uses a base-station/repeater that connected to the internet via WiFi or ethernet?


You're assuming that Internet access is ubiquitous. It's not. Cellular access is. It becomes more interesting when you consider developing countries instead, such as India. Which is what these guys are into.


Wouldn't a cellular imp be nice... mmmm.... smile

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#356342 - 19/11/2012 09:54 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
Beema
new poster

Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 2
I'm very excited about getting a load for light switches as it's going to be a lot cheaper than rewiring my house.

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#356550 - 27/11/2012 17:05 Re: electric imp [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Originally Posted By: tfabris
An imp could, for example, text me when the dryer cycle was done so that I could run upstairs and pull out my dress shirts before they got wrinkled (I'm usually out of earshot of the buzzer). But the imp doesn't do that by itself, it needs the circuit to integrate it with the dryer. You need both bits before it's useful.


Hey, look what I stumbled across:

http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/11/...-when-its-done/
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#356551 - 27/11/2012 17:13 Re: electric imp [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31565
Loc: Seattle, WA
Reading that article to the end, their problem was depending on an accelerometer. What it really needed was a condenser mic. Much easier to hook up, program, and tune.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#356554 - 27/11/2012 19:19 Re: electric imp [Re: tfabris]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Or perhaps a Hall effect sensor, wrapped around the washer's power cord. Cycle ends, current drops. Seems easier than trying to do the detection based on a by-product of the washer's operation (such as noise or movement).

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#356555 - 27/11/2012 19:26 Re: electric imp [Re: canuckInOR]
Shonky
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Or perhaps a Hall effect sensor, wrapped around the washer's power cord. Cycle ends, current drops. Seems easier than trying to do the detection based on a by-product of the washer's operation (such as noise or movement).

Doesn't really work unless you can split the wiring. The return current cancels the load current.
_________________________
Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)

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#356556 - 27/11/2012 21:56 Re: electric imp [Re: Shonky]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Shonky
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Or perhaps a Hall effect sensor, wrapped around the washer's power cord. Cycle ends, current drops. Seems easier than trying to do the detection based on a by-product of the washer's operation (such as noise or movement).

Doesn't really work unless you can split the wiring. The return current cancels the load current.

Solved in one of two ways:
1) Put the imp and sensor into an intermediate plug that the washer then plugs into (rather than directly into the wall socket).
2) Open the panel on the back where the power cord enters the appliance, and add the sensor where the wire is already split. YMMV.

From a productization standpoint, the first would be simplest, but then you have to make products that fit various outlet standards, if you want global reach.

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#356557 - 27/11/2012 22:37 Re: electric imp [Re: canuckInOR]
Shonky
pooh-bah

Registered: 12/01/2002
Posts: 2009
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Originally Posted By: Shonky
Originally Posted By: canuckInOR
Or perhaps a Hall effect sensor, wrapped around the washer's power cord. Cycle ends, current drops. Seems easier than trying to do the detection based on a by-product of the washer's operation (such as noise or movement).

Doesn't really work unless you can split the wiring. The return current cancels the load current.

Solved in one of two ways:
1) Put the imp and sensor into an intermediate plug that the washer then plugs into (rather than directly into the wall socket).
2) Open the panel on the back where the power cord enters the appliance, and add the sensor where the wire is already split. YMMV.

From a productization standpoint, the first would be simplest, but then you have to make products that fit various outlet standards, if you want global reach.

Sure except you are now well beyond just a current transformer/hall effect sensor on the power cord and into much more regulated and more dangerous area for the home hacker...

I see the imp is supposed to be more integrated with the device. There are already ZigBee devices that can do the power pack option albeit without the fancy backend/cloud system.
_________________________
Christian
#40104192 120Gb (no longer in my E36 M3, won't fit the E46 M3)

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#356629 - 02/12/2012 13:29 Re: electric imp [Re: Shonky]
altman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/05/1999
Posts: 3457
Loc: Palo Alto, CA
...power monitoring/control plugs are also on their way for the imp, as we've been working with some asian vendors to seed this market. Looking for when the power drops and stays low for a period is likely the very best way to detect a wash being finished.

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#356631 - 02/12/2012 13:56 Re: electric imp [Re: altman]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14478
Loc: Canada
Meanwhile, if I were to hack up something like this today, I'd just use a photoreceptor taped over the "active" LED on the washer's control panel. Way simpler and more effective than trying to calibrate a motion sensor. smile

But it would cover up one of the blinkin' lights, so perhaps not to everyone's taste. (un)Fortunately, our washer has about a dozen or so of them.

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