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#263254 - 26/08/2005 14:26 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: wfaulk]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5680
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
is there a Windows UI design spec?


There certainly used to be one, but I don't know if it's been updated for Windows XP recently. It definitely used to state that there should be a way to accomplish all given tasks using the keyboard.

For most Microsoft apps, this is still the case.
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-- roger

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#263255 - 26/08/2005 14:55 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: tfabris]
Foz
member

Registered: 24/10/2000
Posts: 106
Loc: San Jose, CA
Quote:
How does one use a Mac to connect to a Windows share on the LAN?


You can do this a couple of ways. First way is to browse the network in Finder. Next way (and the way I use) is to use the "Go To" menu entry in Finder and "Go To" a server. It will ask for specific connect info (a URI) or you can browse the network from there.

You can do a connect to smb://servername/sharename at that point

If you want to automatically mount remote shares you can frob your startup/login items in system preferences.

-- Gary F.
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Eeyore, Original Owner -- Mk II 80 Gb, Blue S/N #090000803 Tigger, 2nd Owner -- Mk IIa, 80 Gb, Blue S/N #40103789

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#263256 - 26/08/2005 15:01 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: wfaulk]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
The average Windows user doesn't know most of the keyboard shortcuts, but that doesn't mean there isn't one for nearly everything. Hell, most of the people I run into don't know a single one, including cut/copy/paste. They'll see me using it and stop me so I can show them. It's as if it's the most amazing thing they've ever seen on a computer.

I, on the other hand, wouldn't be able to use a computer if I didn't have Ctrl+x/c/v.

And I'd also be very frustrated with the same shortucts Tony is battling with.
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Matt

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#263257 - 26/08/2005 15:29 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: tfabris]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
FWIW, Option-left and Option-right do what you expect Ctrl-left and Ctrl-right to do.

As for why Home/End are virtually worthless keys, you got me. Though, since Powerbooks don't have specific Home/End/PgUp/PgDown keys (you have to do Fn-Left for home, Fn-Right for End, etc.) I think maybe they figured "let's make surethe same key combination can be used when people don't have full keyboards." That's just a guess though, it's more likely theyre just trying to be different.

My biggest disappointment with OS X Tiger is that they did little or nothing in the way of adding more keyboard shortcuts. Not necessarily Windows ones, but Windows-like ideas like the ability to use the keyboard to open menu items, sane keyboard behavior in modal dialogs, etc. Sometimes I think Apple needs to understand that just because Microsoft thought of it first (or copied it from Apple and made more use of it, depending on your religious beliefs) doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
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- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#263258 - 26/08/2005 15:44 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dignan]
Cybjorg
addict

Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
Crap, when I work in Photoshop, I've got one hand on the mouse and the other flying across the keyboard. As if Windows doesn't have enough shortcuts, Photoshop multiplies it by 100. My traditional hand-stance is the three fingered jockey on the Shift+Ctrl+Alt buttons.

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#263259 - 26/08/2005 17:33 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Cybjorg]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Crap, when I work in Photoshop, I've got one hand on the mouse and the other flying across the keyboard. As if Windows doesn't have enough shortcuts, Photoshop multiplies it by 100. My traditional hand-stance is the three fingered jockey on the Shift+Ctrl+Alt buttons.

Hehe, that's exactly what I'm like too. I can't tell you how annoyed I get by this situation: there's a program I use regularly, it involves having multiple windows open, and it doesn't follow the Windows shortcut of Ctrl+W. My biggest gripe with Paint Shop Pro is that it uses Ctrl+F4 to close individual images it has open. Did they not realize that this makes no sense? They've mixed Alt+F4 and Ctrl+W to make a very awkward "shortcut." I shouldn't have to move my hand much at all to hit a shortcut. I usually hit Alt+F4 with my thumb+middle finger, and Ctrl+W with my pinky+middle finger. Ctrl+F4 requires me to move my whole arm in order to pull it off with one hand.

Phew! Sorry, had to vent. I love PSP, but this is the only thing that irritates me about it.
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Matt

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#263260 - 26/08/2005 17:37 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Actually, that's one thing I do know about Windows UI design. Some things that can work on both full windows and MDI windows use the same keystroke except with Alt for full windows and Ctrl for MDI windows. You'll find a lot of things that use Ctrl-F4. Most of them probably also use Ctrl-W, but I think that's a more recent one popularized by Netscape, honestly.

Also, feel free to blame the designers of the IBM PC-AT for putting your Control key in an awkward location.
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#263261 - 26/08/2005 18:07 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: wfaulk]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Interesting. That makes sense. I guess I just haven't run into that keystroke very often, and find Ctrl+W so nice to have that it sticks out when I can't use it.

Quote:
Also, feel free to blame the designers of the IBM PC-AT for putting your Control key in an awkward location.

Ctrl+F4 is the only thing I've ever found it awkward for. Otherwise, it's very easy to rest my pinky on it and use my index and middle finger for the other keys.
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Matt

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#263262 - 26/08/2005 18:38 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Those of us with real computers have the Control key immediately to the left of the A key. Much easier to use and it puts the nigh useless CapsLock well out of the way so as to avoid being accidentally hit.
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Bitt Faulk

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#263263 - 26/08/2005 19:29 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: wfaulk]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
Most of them probably also use Ctrl-W, but I think that's a more recent one popularized by Netscape, honestly.


I think this mostly came from the Mac side, where Apple-Q quits programs, and Apple-W closes windows.

Oh, Tony, quick spelling checker hint for Safari, right or control click a form, go to Spelling, and turn on "Check Spelling as You Type". That will be saved in Safari preferences and turn on the red underline for mis spelled lines. I'm not sure why that isn't on by default like it seems to be in every other text area in the OS.

Also, you can right click any word anywhere and get Search in Google, Spotlight, or a dictionary lookup. In the dictionary application preferences, you can set the popup to be a little tab that open from the word instead of being in a seperate window.

http://macosxhints.com/ is a great hints site for all kinds of things that I try to eyebal at least once a week.

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#263264 - 26/08/2005 20:09 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dylan]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
Quote:
My other Windows to Mac switcher tip is to drag the Applications folder to right side of the dock. Then you can hold a left click on the folder (or right click if you're using a real mouse) and get a Windows Start menu like launcher for your apps. You'll have to grab the Apps folder from the "Machintosh HD" root, not the alias in the left Finder pane.



Thanks for this tip that is a great idea.
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Matt

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#263265 - 26/08/2005 21:01 As long as we are talking mac keyboard shortcuts.... [Re: msaeger]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
As long as we are talking mac keyboard shortcuts....

With windows in firefox or IE I can type empegbbs then hit control + enter and it puts in the www .com parts is there a combo on the mac that will do this ?
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Matt

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#263266 - 26/08/2005 21:42 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: drakino]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31563
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
right or control click a form, go to Spelling, and turn on "Check Spelling as You Type".

Works great, thanks!

Too bad that new fancy mouse doesn't have a wireless option yet. I'm stuck with the 1-button wireless mouse at the moment.

Now, another macnewbie question. In Windows you press ALT plus a letter to select a menu item. I can't seem to get the menu items on the mac to be keyboard-selectable like that. Do I have to use the mouse for all menus?
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Tony Fabris

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#263267 - 27/08/2005 00:24 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: tfabris]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Quote:
Now, another macnewbie question. In Windows you press ALT plus a letter to select a menu item. I can't seem to get the menu items on the mac to be keyboard-selectable like that. Do I have to use the mouse for all menus?


Yup. See my post above re: Apple not taking cues from the few good things Microsoft does to Windows.

You can, in many apps, set Keyboard shortcuts for menu items. Also, if you go into System Preferences, Keyboard & Mouse, Keyboard Shortcuts you can set up shortcuts for specific apps that way. But there's no way to navigate the menus with the keyboard the way you can in Windows. There might be a 3rd party app out there to do it, but I haven't seen it.
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- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#263268 - 27/08/2005 05:38 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: tfabris]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
Too bad that new fancy mouse doesn't have a wireless option yet.


You do know that you can use any other bluetooth mouse out there as well. I myself use a Logitech MX900 on my Mac, and it works just fine to allow me to avoid the control-clicking to get context menus open. That, and I love having a scroll wheel. (Or a scrolling method on a touchpad).

Quote:
I can't seem to get the menu items on the mac to be keyboard-selectable like that. Do I have to use the mouse for all menus?


System Preferences, Keyboard and Mouse, Keyboard Shortcuts. There, I see "Move Focus to the Menu Bar" defaulted to Ctrl-F2. Once thats selected, arrow keys work to navigate all the menus.

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#263269 - 27/08/2005 10:57 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: drakino]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Quote:

System Preferences, Keyboard and Mouse, Keyboard Shortcuts. There, I see "Move Focus to the Menu Bar" defaulted to Ctrl-F2. Once thats selected, arrow keys work to navigate all the menus.


Hn, I stand corrected. Being able to jump right to each menu individually the way you can in Windows would be a bit more useful, but at least they're starting to get the idea.
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- Tony C
my empeg stuff

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#263270 - 27/08/2005 18:08 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dylan]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
Quote:
Command-K... I may have already said this here (I said it in some forum) but I think long time Mac users have a special part of their brain that remembers arcane keystroke combinations.


Sometimes it's just easier to quote the shortcut, than to tell some one, Go the the menu bar, select XXX... and so on. Especially if it's a newbie who hasn't learned GUI jargon yet. That kind of thing gets to be self sustaining.
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Glenn

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#263271 - 30/08/2005 23:36 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dignan]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
There's no keyboard shortcut in Windows for creating a new folder. That's been sore-spot with me since Win95. And I haven't noticed anyone release any freeware to correct it.

And on the Mac the shortcut to rename a file or folder is Return/Enter. Which I'd prefer would allow me to launch instead of having to use cmd-O for Open.

Bruno
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#263272 - 30/08/2005 23:42 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: hybrid8]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
And on the Mac the shortcut to rename a file or folder is Return/Enter. Which I'd prefer would allow me to launch instead of having to use cmd-O for Open.

Wow, that would annoy the hell out of me. That would probably turn me off right there. Why would they make it so difficult? I mean, it isn't very logical to assign the more common action to the more difficult keystroke.

I agree that it would be very nice to have a "new folder" shortcut. It hasn't bothered me too much, as it's nice that "folder" is always the first item in the "new" list.

I'm still interested in trying out Macs, but unfortunately not interested enough to spend the money that would otherwise go towards new components for a new PC. For the amount I'd spend on a mini, I'd be able to buy the Shuttle and CPU that I want, and have a little left over for the video card.
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Matt

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#263273 - 30/08/2005 23:50 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: drakino]
hybrid8
carpal tunnel

Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
You can also turn on Full Keyboard Access and allow selection of all controls with the tab key and cursor keys. Just make sure you remember that SPACEBAR selects/activates the currently highlighted item and that RETURN selects/activates the default item. That's a little unintuitive to me, but so many things on the Mac are.

I'm still keeping all digits crossed hoping for a good text editor in the style of TextPad, UltraEdit or EmEditor. BBEdit and TextWrangler or anything else on the Mac are just not there (it's one of the reasons I use VNC/RDC a lot to my PC). Worst of all is any editor using Apple's built-in text controls. Ugh. Scrolling a page causes the view to jump around instead of moving smoothly line by line.

So Tony, how is the video playback now that you've set everything up?

Bruno
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Bruno
Twisted Melon : Fine Mac OS Software

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#263274 - 31/08/2005 02:15 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Honestly, if an icon is selected, chances are you just clicked on it, and it's easier to click on it again (quickly) than to press return. So it seems to me that the more common thing has gotten the quicker accelerator, since it's more likely that you're scrolling through icons with the arrow keys to rename them than to open them.
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Bitt Faulk

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#263275 - 31/08/2005 02:41 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: wfaulk]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Yes, that's the more common thing if you are navigating with the mouse, but if you have your right hand on the keyboard where the enter/return key is located, chances are that you got to that directory with the arrow keys.

The way I operate, I usually have my left hand firmly planted while using the computer. It may move slightly to reach some keys (function keys, perhaps), but otherwise it's either sitting on ASDF or layed somewhere aroung those keys. The right hand is the workout hand. It's the one I see as performing double duty on the mouse/keyboard/numpad.

That's how I operate, but I suspect that this is how Windows was intended to be used. You'll notice that the majority of the common shortcuts use the keys intended for the left hand (X, C, V, Z, S, W, and R for example).

That's just the way I do it, I can't speak for anyone else. So no, there is almost no time that I've gone to a directory by mouse and would find it more convenient to press enter/return than use my left hand to press the F2 key.

Damn, we've gotten into a religious debate, haven't we? I just want to say that I find this discussion very interesting, and I'm interested in how others operate their computers on this level. I've described how I use Windows, what's the feel on Macs?
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Matt

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#263276 - 31/08/2005 02:46 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Personally, I find that all GUI-based systems are easy to use for beginners but difficult to use for experts. But that describes both the WIndows and Mac markets, in my opinion. At least Apple has put some power-usability into its OSes for quite some time in the form of AppleScript, or has at least tried to. Automating anything on a Windows machine is an exercise in aggravation.

Quote:
So no, there is almost no time that I've gone to a directory by mouse and would find it more convenient to press enter/return than use my left hand to press the F2 key.

Well, no, but if you're seriously going to rename a file using only your left hand, then you're probably not in much of a rush to begin with.


Edited by wfaulk (31/08/2005 02:49)
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Bitt Faulk

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#263277 - 31/08/2005 05:19 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: wfaulk]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Well, no, but if you're seriously going to rename a file using only your left hand, then you're probably not in much of a rush to begin with.

That is true. I can see some reasoning for it, although I would still say that with how Windows operates, it would still be an unintiutive action for the enter key, which is generally used to perform actions, usually the same actions as the left mouse button. switching up the use of the key would be confusing. F2, on the other hand, is used in many applications as a rename key (I use it in Excel all the time).

Quote:
Personally, I find that all GUI-based systems are easy to use for beginners but difficult to use for experts.

That sounds like a good assessment.
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Matt

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#263278 - 31/08/2005 05:51 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: hybrid8]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5680
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
There's no keyboard shortcut in Windows for creating a new folder.


Alt+F, W, F.
Or: Press the context menu key (that one between the right-hand Windows key and the right-hand Ctrl key). W, F.

OK, it's three keypresses, but it's still pretty quick.
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-- roger

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#263279 - 31/08/2005 06:31 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: hybrid8]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31563
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
instead of having to use cmd-O for Open.

Ah! Was wondering about that. My first instinct when creating a new folder is to press ENTER after naming the thing, which of course just name-edits it again. Was wondering what the keyboard option to open that folder was.

Quote:
So Tony, how is the video playback now that you've set everything up?

Paraphrasing what I said in the other thread: With Quicktime, video playback is terrible, because the Divx and Xvid codecs don't seem to work right. I have some Divx video files of my own musical performances, and they don't play right. So I simply installed Mplayer and all is well, that works fine for video playback.
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Tony Fabris

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#263280 - 31/08/2005 07:20 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dignan]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Quote:
I'm still interested in trying out Macs, but unfortunately not interested enough to spend the money that would otherwise go towards new components for a new PC. For the amount I'd spend on a mini, I'd be able to buy the Shuttle and CPU that I want, and have a little left over for the video card.


Well, you could always test drive a Mac Mini for 30 days and return it if you don't like it. Honestly, no amount of talk on the web is going to convince you. I personally tinkered with OS X on release day for about 3 hours at the local Apple Reseller. That experience allowed me to justify $500 on a used iMac. From there, I got to know the OS better, and also started to notice some nice Apple designs. The iMac I had was completely fan less and very quiet. From there, I sold the iMac for $600, bought a G4 Cube for about $700 and started using the Mac for more and more things. When it finally came time to replace my PC laptop, it was replaced with the Powerbook, and I don't regret that decision in any way. But none of it would have likely happened had I not taken the initial dive and got the iMac to see how things would work.

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#263281 - 31/08/2005 13:01 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
Quote:
with how Windows operates, it would still be an unintiutive action for the enter key, which is generally used to perform actions, usually the same actions as the left mouse button. switching up the use of the key would be confusing. F2, on the other hand, is used in many applications as a rename key (I use it in Excel all the time).

?

Apple shortcuts are unintuitive because someone else does it differently? I can understand the argument that it would be difficult for you to transistion, but claiming that they're inherently unintuitive is disingenuous.
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Bitt Faulk

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#263282 - 31/08/2005 15:14 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: wfaulk]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Quote:
Quote:
with how Windows operates, it would still be an unintiutive action for the enter key, which is generally used to perform actions, usually the same actions as the left mouse button. switching up the use of the key would be confusing. F2, on the other hand, is used in many applications as a rename key (I use it in Excel all the time).

?

Apple shortcuts are unintuitive because someone else does it differently? I can understand the argument that it would be difficult for you to transistion, but claiming that they're inherently unintuitive is disingenuous.

That's not what I said. At least, that's not what I meant. I appologize, I'm not getting enough sleep this week and I can't seem to get my thoughts out straight.

Forget any comparing to Windows. My complaint, in this specific instance, was that the behavior of the enter key as the keystroke for renaming a file is unintuitive. However, I have a question: is it generally the case that, in the rest of the OS, the enter key is used to rename items? If that is not the case, then I find this to be a poor use for that key. If the same key performs completely unrelated actions depending on the context, I find that unintuitive. But remember, I'm only talking about this one key, and just on MacOS. I am not saying that the entire OS is unintuitive. I'm certainly not saying that there is no unintuitive behavior on a Windows OS (that would be impossible to claim).

So that's enough of this crazy debate over a tiny thing like how the enter key behaves. I appologize for going all crazy on it. It's just that I generally pride myself in at least being able to get around Windows quicker than most (my boss and coworkers are always pretty impressed), so little things like shortcuts and keyboard actions are extremely important to me.

THAT SAID...

Tom, thank you very much for informing me of that Mac Mini trial. You are correct, no amount of convincing here could make me interested in a Mac because I'm actually already interested! Really, I am! If it weren't for the money issue, this program probably would have tipped me over the edge already.

The problem is, even after a trial, I still wouldn't be able to justify the expense. I don't have much money to spend on something like this right now. I'm saving up to buy an apartment, and any disposable income goes to either my social life or tech stuff that I see an immediate need for. Therefore, my next PC purchase will remain a PC, as it is more cost effective. I can update my computer now for FAR less money than buying a whole new compareable Mac.

Again, sorry for all the annoying posts about enter keys
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Matt

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#263283 - 31/08/2005 16:20 Re: Mac Mini as a TV-room media player [Re: Dignan]
wfaulk
carpal tunnel

Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
No problem. I get caught up in stupid debates for no reason sometimes.

That said, I'm not sure where else in the OS you could rename files.
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Bitt Faulk

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