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#263704 - 29/08/2005 22:52 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: visuvius]
shadow45
member

Registered: 19/03/2002
Posts: 144
Loc: Florida, USA
Price gouging is very illegal after a natural disaster. The morons that even think they can get away with it are quickly fined and often they lose their business license. The law varies from state to state, of course.. but all states have them.

That's why you haven't seen the gas price legitimately rise in Florida Alabama or Mississippi yet- because they are under a state of emergency. in 2 days or so, there will be insane increases- 30 cents++ more a gallon. it was 20c more last year after Ivan and it never went back down. fill your tank now to save a buck.

Any raised prices the day of the storm or even on Day +1 should be reported to your states' Division of Consumer Somethingorother (they have an office next to the ministry of funny walks) if you're under a State of Emergency..

I hate gougers! dieeee

*attached is a photo of the gas station a couple blocks from where I was, after hurricane Charley's eye passed over us last year. freaking amazing ...


Attachments
263617-autoshop.jpg (250 downloads)



Edited by shadow45 (29/08/2005 22:58)
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#263705 - 29/08/2005 23:32 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: tonyc]
visuvius
addict

Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
Heh. I was actually originally going to say, "I can understand looting, but price gouging is just evil", but I edited it out cause, well, looting sucks too.

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#263706 - 30/08/2005 00:05 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: JBjorgen]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Quote:
I've heard that gas prices are expected to go up an average of 10 cents per gallon tomorrow. Then again...it could be sensationalism. Either way, I'll have a full tank tonight and no regrets tomorrow.


They are already up more than that here in SF.
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#263707 - 30/08/2005 00:10 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
Heather
addict

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 510
Loc: NY
Same here too. Up from this morning even, by about 15 cents.
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Heather

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B Anthony

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#263708 - 30/08/2005 00:46 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: JBjorgen]
Attack
addict

Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 586
Loc: Florida
I got gas tonight (9 gallons in a CRX) as I was just about empty. I always pay at the pump with my credit card and tonight the receipt didn't print. I went inside and the clerk just got off a call from the owner or manager and said that regular unleaded gas would be going up 40 cents.

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#263709 - 30/08/2005 02:29 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: Attack]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Quote:
I got gas tonight (9 gallons in a CRX) as I was just about empty. I always pay at the pump with my credit card and tonight the receipt didn't print. I went inside and the clerk just got off a call from the owner or manager and said that regular unleaded gas would be going up 40 cents.


Okay, that freaked me out enough that I just went out to fill my tank (I was riding a quarter tank for the past 3 days hoping prices would drop a bit... stupid hurricane). The Arco I usually go to was at $2.99 for supreme (have to use it... stupid turbo)... while the shell across the street was at $3.13 for supreme. I pulled up to the pumps at the Arco to be met with a hand wriiten "OUT" sign across the medium and supreme buttons. Sweet. So I hit the next cheapest place I know a mile away, a Shell that is at $3.08 for supreme. It's sorta nuts living in a big city where you'll have two Shell's or two Chevron's literally 2 blocks from each other with 10 cent differences in price. City wide the differences can vary 25 cents or more.
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#263710 - 30/08/2005 15:07 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: DWallach]
peter
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/07/2000
Posts: 4158
Loc: Cambridge, England
I kind of wondered, when I was in New Orleans a few years ago, why they'd built a stadium that looked just like a big concrete bunker. Now that's just looking like an incredibly smart idea.

Peter

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#263711 - 30/08/2005 15:15 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: peter]
petteri
addict

Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 432
Loc: Miami, FL USA
Conditions are detoriating inside the dome. I hope they can find a way to relocate those people in there to better conditions. From what I've heard martial law is now in effect for the City of New Orleans....

This is really a sad story.

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#263712 - 30/08/2005 16:32 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: petteri]
DWallach
carpal tunnel

Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3747
There are some detailed photos in the New York Times (and elsewhere) that refer, matter-of-factly to their subject being a looter hauling stolen goods through chest-deep water. Strange.

EDIT: Looks like the NYT legal department got to the copy editors. A caption that formerly described the subject of a photo as a looter now simply says "A young man waded through chest-deep flood waters."

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#263713 - 30/08/2005 16:56 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: DWallach]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
There's lots of photos, video, and reports of people looting. One reporter was witnessing it first hand and was asked if they were looting necessities, and he said he saw a few people with diapers and formula, but that almost everyone else was stealing clothes and shoes... trying them on in the street and carrying boxes of stuff away. Could be necessity, but who knows. Sad either way.

Reports from the dome are weird and sketchy... On CNN they reported an hour ago that a man was playing dominos on the second level... calmly got up, walked to the railing, told people below to watch out, and jumped off. Yikes. Toilets are overflowing and it's f'n HOT. Would not want to be there for sure.

My family that evacuated to Houston is heading to stay with others in my family in Baton Rouge and wait it out... it's pretty definite that their houses are under water or severely damaged. Suck.
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#263714 - 30/08/2005 17:59 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
Man. Ugh. Just talked to my Mom. Family is getting really freaked. Their houses are most likely annihilated, they won't have jobs to go back to for months and my cousins have kids and barely scrape by as it is. I can't even fathom what's going to happen to New Orleans and the outlying areas. Most of the population is poor as it is... this is just unreal. I want to go back and help... dunno what I could do though. Stomach is in knots.
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#263715 - 30/08/2005 18:04 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
jmwking
old hand

Registered: 27/02/2003
Posts: 737
Loc: Washington, DC metro
We have an office down there about two blocks off the river at the edge of the French Quarter. We've heard from all but one of our people - she was staying with her mother, who wouldn't leave. One in Metairie who'd decided to wait it out ("a few candles, a bottle of wine, and I'll chase my wife around the house") left just after the first levee gave way.

As you'd expect, many of their houses are partially under water, though their office seems to have been spared the worst of the flooding. No one has been in it yet, though. For all we know, the roof has collapsed.

They've scattered to Houston, New York, Oregon, Fredricksburg (VA), and of course Baton Rouge. After they've all resettled, it'll be interesting to see if we can actually put the office back together again, and if so, how long it'll take. We're planning restore a backup tape from their office (it's in Houston today), recreating their server here in our corporate office, and getting a shell of an office together. Of course, most of that office's business is destination logistics, and I don't think we'll be getting many visitors into the city for a while.

-jk

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#263716 - 30/08/2005 19:42 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: petteri]
Robotic
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
Yahoo just bounced an email to Stu at Eutronics back at me.
Hope all is well.
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#263717 - 30/08/2005 19:47 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: Robotic]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
I would not expect to hear from anyone in the area for a while. Even if they are okay and everything is fine, there are huge power outages everywhere, and most infrastructure has been damaged. And I am sure they have more to worry about than logging in...
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#263718 - 31/08/2005 01:57 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3196
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
Man. Ugh. Just talked to my Mom. Family is getting really freaked. Their houses are most likely annihilated,

My gf has an aunt (who I met just last week) in Mississippi whose house is "gone -- as if it were never there."

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#263719 - 31/08/2005 03:55 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: canuckInOR]
loren
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/08/2000
Posts: 3826
Loc: SLC, UT, USA
I find it interesting that public reaction seems to be way less... I guess "interested" is a good word... about this than 9/11. I would be f'n SHOCKED if the death toll isn't higher, and the far reaching economic toll is going to be similar if not way worse. Is it because the enemy here is "nature" and not a group or person?

If you want to depress yourself as I have been doing all day, best photos are here:
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/photos/

and most recent local articles are here:
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/

Scroll down and read the article titled "City a Woeful Scene"

N.O. is such an impoverished city, I can't even fathom how that many people are going to deal with this financially. The people in the 9th Ward don't have home owners insurance. It's all so f'd up. I mean... there are people in the middle of a flood zone breaking into WalMart and walking past food and water to steal a big screen TV when they have no access to fresh water and food. How f*cked up is the mentality in that community?
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#263720 - 31/08/2005 06:47 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
drakino
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
Loc: Seattle, WA
Sadly, the biggest public reaction I hear to all this isn't a huge concern for the city, but the fact that the SUV driving populous is now having to brace for even higher gas prices.

There also is no political gain in talking about the hurricane like there was with the terrorist attacks. 9/11 still comes up as a common talking point out of many politically motivated peoples mouthes these days.

It is really sad that people do in general care less when nature causes suffering for people. The reaction for many people here when the tsunami occurred last year was also very dulled.

While I don't personally know anyone in the area, my thoughts are with those here and my friends that do know people in the area. Thankfully it seems most were able to heed the mandatory evacuation warnings, but getting out was only the first step of a life changing event that has occurred.
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#263721 - 31/08/2005 08:41 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
petteri
addict

Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 432
Loc: Miami, FL USA
Quote:

If you want to depress yourself as I have been doing all day, best photos are here:
http://www.nola.com/hurricane/photos/

and most recent local articles are here:
http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/

Scroll down and read the article titled "City a Woeful Scene"

N.O. is such an impoverished city, I can't even fathom how that many people are going to deal with this financially. The people in the 9th Ward don't have home owners insurance. It's all so f'd up. I mean... there are people in the middle of a flood zone breaking into WalMart and walking past food and water to steal a big screen TV when they have no access to fresh water and food. How f*cked up is the mentality in that community?


This is what I've been worring about. The extreme poverty, not just in N.O. but in almost every America city, makes disasters like this much worse that they really need to be. US poverty These people had no way to leave. Were there buses to take people who wanted to leave the city to shelters further north?

The NOLA.com people have been doing a great job, I can only imagine the stress that they must be under. They are literally witnessing the utter collapse of their historic city. I was hoping for more uplifting news this morning, but instead it seems to be even worse.

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#263722 - 31/08/2005 09:02 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Greetings!

The difference in reaction is somewhat understandable. 9/11 was an extremely sudden, psychological shock to many people. No warning, the massive destruction (but not on the scale of an entire city) against a civilian target by people that hated ordinary US citizens enough to fly planes into buildings, etc. The shock became a symbol, a rallying cry for politicians from all parties, repeated to the point of insanity by the media. I would think it equivalent to "Remember Pearl Harbor" in terms of the psychological effects. You will note that, unless you know someone or live near the Pentagon, that it is always the WTC that brings the reaction / gets the attention as well.

The scope of devastation in NO (and to other cities along the entire coastline) is extreme. But this event is missing a number of elements that make it such a psychological shock to people. It was cause by a force of nature, it was slow to happen (a longer build up in the media and a slow motion event instead of three seconds of "impact footage"), many people had time to evacuate and it is regional in an area at extremely high risk for such an event (kind of like "The Big One" in California). It will not leave the emotional scarring on most of the nation that 9/11 did. It will be in memory for a long time, but not with the reflex reaction that 9/11 brings.

Now, this makes the event no less horrific, especially for those that live through it, the number of people killed / injured by it, or those that help others to recover from it (i.e., rescue workers, medical staff, police, national guard, etc.). The slow unfolding of events that other parts of the nation lose focus with is part of the severe damage done to those people. The creeping / unstoppable rise of flood waters, probably in the dark (no power / night), the calls for help, being stranded on rooftops, no available food or water, all over a prolonged period of time with little relief. Those who evacuated are lucky not to be in the middle of it, but even they are left wondering what (if anything) is left after all this, if their friends and neighbors are even alive and the question "what next".

There will be a huge economic toll. And I am sure that there will be an outpouring of aid from companies and people in general to help. Perhaps I am just a bit cynical, but it will not be (never be) enough to make the city whole again. But at least it is a start. I am not sure how people will recover psychologically, but most will - eventually. Given time. Financially, well, I do not know.

As for the looting / widescreen TV example. I would not doubt that shock is part of that. Without electricity or broadcasting (I am sure that most local stations were being sent from the city), it is not all that useful. But it is an illusion of normal life - something the thief always wanted... Who knows...
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200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#263723 - 31/08/2005 09:44 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
Phil.
pooh-bah

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2485
Something that confuses me... how were so many people killed? I can understand people being crushed or drowning inside their homes but I'm reading reports of people being killed in their cars or whilst out walking. What the hell were they doing outside? Do people still have the "oooo I must go and look mentality"?


Edited by Phil. (31/08/2005 09:45)

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#263724 - 31/08/2005 10:27 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
JeffS
carpal tunnel

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Quote:
I find it interesting that public reaction seems to be way less... I guess "interested" is a good word... about this than 9/11. I would be f'n SHOCKED if the death toll isn't higher, and the far reaching economic toll is going to be similar if not way worse. Is it because the enemy here is "nature" and not a group or person?
I agree with Paul's post, plus I think that the angle of comprehending another human being doing something like this is always more sensational. Despite numerous historical lessons to the contrary, it seems we have this innate trust of other human beings- that they are incapable of having such little regard for innocent life. There is little doubt, however, about nature's disregard of innocent life.

A murder is always more sensational that when someone loses his or her life in a storm. We expect the latter, but every time we hear that a human decided the best course of action was to take the life of another human we are intrigued and distrubed.

Also, most of the concern over 911 did not seem to be about those who died. It was about our "loss of security" and "fear of terrorism". At the end of the day, sadly, the question becomes "what does this mean to ME", unless someone you know was invovled.

It is disturbing how we react to such tragedys- it does not speak well of humans, nor of the United States.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.

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#263725 - 31/08/2005 10:30 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: Robotic]
Ezekiel
pooh-bah

Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
Regarding Stu & Eutronix, I've not heard from them (nor do I expect to for weeks & weeks - I sent my cable harnesses to them last week for repairs), but I did find this piece of news regarding their town, Mandeville, LA which is on the northern shore of Lake Pontchartrain:

Quote:
In Mandeville, mostly wind damage
Moday, 9:30 p.m.

Although Mandeville escaped major flooding, the streets were virtually impassable hours after the storm left a dangerous tangle of power lines and pine trees across roadways. Police officers cruised up and down U.S. 190, but were unable to respond to the few calls from residents reporting gas leaks or severe structural damage.

“We’ve got damage everywhere,” Sgt. Ron Ruple said. “Almost every street in the city is blocked.”

Thick pine trees toppled almost in an east-west line near Montgomery Street, cutting off access to the lakefront. Police Chief Tom Buell said he expected some flooding in Old Mandeville, but by 4 p.m. officers had yet to carve a path through the debris to survey the Lakeshore Drive.



I hope Stu & his family are safe.

-Zeke
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#263726 - 31/08/2005 10:42 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: JeffS]
pgrzelak
carpal tunnel

Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
Quote:
At the end of the day, sadly, the question becomes "what does this mean to ME", unless someone you know was invovled.

It is disturbing how we react to such tragedys- it does not speak well of humans, nor of the United States.


This is largely true, but at the same time events like this can also bring out the best in people - all of the efforts, volunteers, donations, trying to help. (And this is coming from a cynical, pessimistic, anti-social hermit.) If there had not been a disaster, people in (select geographic location of your choice) would not be thinking about trying help someone living in poverty in NO or Biloxi. Catastrophic events amplify the emotions and tendancies that are already there. These can be both good (volunteering, donating, etc.) or bad (looting, profiteering, etc.).

I can only hope that this disaster can hold the attention of the media long enough to get the level of reaction from the rest of the country that will help these people rebuild.
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Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs

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#263727 - 31/08/2005 11:22 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
Micman2b
addict

Registered: 27/12/2001
Posts: 441
Loc: Central, NC, USA
From the damage I have seen on TV and on the internet it seems like that the damage is worse than the 2004 tsunami. Would not suprise me to hear of 5000+ have died so far in this disaster. 100000+ in New Orleans alone are trapped and the populous will get ill from disease/fighting within the next few days and months. Where is the national outpouring like we had for the tsunamis. These people need help NOW!!!
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Sean in NC
130gb MK2a w/ 32mb ram
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#263728 - 31/08/2005 11:28 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: Micman2b]
tonyc
carpal tunnel

Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Quote:
From the damage I have seen on TV and on the internet it seems like that the damage is worse than the 2004 tsunami. Would not suprise me to hear of 5000+ have died so far in this disaster. 100000+ in New Orleans alone are trapped and the populous will get ill from disease/fighting within the next few days and months. Where is the national outpouring like we had for the tsunamis. These people need help NOW!!!


In terms of material damage, buildings and the like, it's worse than the Indian Ocean tsunami. But 300,000+ lives were lost in the tsunami. Even though the death toll from Katrina will rise in the coming days and weeks, there's no way it will approach 300k.

As for donations, I am pretty sure the national outpouring is underway. Almost everyone I've talked to at work has donated to the ARC or someone else who can help. The story is still unfolding, and people are probably still trying to wrap their head around the situation.
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my empeg stuff

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#263729 - 31/08/2005 11:36 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: tonyc]
Micman2b
addict

Registered: 27/12/2001
Posts: 441
Loc: Central, NC, USA
Quote:
Quote:
From the damage I have seen on TV and on the internet it seems like that the damage is worse than the 2004 tsunami. Would not suprise me to hear of 5000+ have died so far in this disaster. 100000+ in New Orleans alone are trapped and the populous will get ill from disease/fighting within the next few days and months. Where is the national outpouring like we had for the tsunamis. These people need help NOW!!!


In terms of material damage, buildings and the like, it's worse than the Indian Ocean tsunami. But 300,000+ lives were lost in the tsunami. Even though the death toll from Katrina will rise in the coming days and weeks, there's no way it will approach 300k.

As for donations, I am pretty sure the national outpouring is underway. Almost everyone I've talked to at work has donated to the ARC or someone else who can help. The story is still unfolding, and people are probably still trying to wrap their head around the situation.


Agreed Tony, whereas the deaths may never reach this magnitude, the damage is just as surreal. It seems that the national media is just coming to the realization of the scope of the destruction. Most folks really do not understand that this was not just another hurrricane with 30 deaths and a few trees down. A waitress last night told me that it is not a big deal and damage is minimal. We are talking about a 35-40' storm surge reaching 2-10 miles inland, winds to 170mph and devastating flooding in New Orleans.

If you can, donate to the ARC or your favorite charity...
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Sean in NC
130gb MK2a w/ 32mb ram
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#263730 - 31/08/2005 14:48 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: Phil.]
Mach
old hand

Registered: 15/07/2002
Posts: 826
Loc: Texas, USA
I lived in New Orleans for several years. We always talked about the Doomsday scenario of a Cat 5 Hurricane picking up Lake Pontchartrain and dumping it in the French Quarter. It's very sad to see it coming true.

Regarding why people are out and about, its not so much "Must go out and look" but the desire to check on friends, family, or to survey the damage. The flood in Metarie in 95(?) was alot like this. Our friend's house flooded in the morning and in the afternoon, a group had assembled to help them clean up. It's just what we did because flooding was fairly common.

You also have to remember that everyone thought that they had dodged the bullet then the levee let loose. I'm guessing many people were caught off guard.

As far as how people died, most go out to survey the damage and get hit by debris or downed powerlines or walk into a canal or open manhole. In a car, you wouldn't believe the number of people that think they can get through high water. We watched one guy a few years back try to drive his car through an underpass where a bus was submerged in the other lane. Driving into canals that are flooded over is also very common.

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#263731 - 31/08/2005 17:24 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: loren]
Attack
addict

Registered: 01/03/2002
Posts: 586
Loc: Florida
The price didn't go up yesterday but a co-worker just got back from lunch and Regular Unleaded is now over $3.00. He even said one gas station was putting the 3 up as he was driving by.

Another Co-worker talked to his dad today. His dad happens to work at an oil trading firm. His father said to make sure you fill up your tank every day since some areas could endup without any gas to buy.

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#263732 - 31/08/2005 18:28 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: Attack]
g_attrill
old hand

Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
Quote:
Another Co-worker talked to his dad today. His dad happens to work at an oil trading firm. His father said to make sure you fill up your tank every day since some areas could endup without any gas to buy.

Hmmmm... that's what people did when we had the fuel blockades here in 2001. All it did was run the pumps drier sooner than it would otherwise had done because all the fuel was in the vehicles than at the station.

eg. my aunt, who drives very little had 1/4 of a tank left (enough for a week or two) but she brimmed it the first morning and probably still had 7/8ths of it left at the end of the week, when people who needed the fuel couldn't get to work.

Gareth

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#263733 - 31/08/2005 18:40 Re: Hurricane Katrina [Re: g_attrill]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3553
Loc: Columbus, OH
As of this morning we're up 32 cents/gallon and rising.
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