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#359157 - 14/07/2013 06:35 Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ???
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
I am always looking at new areas of photography, and after a visit to see my Uncle (who does low level pole photography) I thought it would be an interesting area to look into. I actually started about 10 years ago with the purchase of an RC Heli, but I never got the hang of that!

Does any one have any experience with Hexacopters and the like? I fancy building my own, but there is lots of information out there but no straight forward guides on how best to go about it. I'm looking to build a pretty serious rig that I could use on commercial jobs so it needs to lift the NEX or DSLR at least.

So far by Google research has brought me to DJI electronics and this frame...

http://shop.carboncore.co.uk/H6-950-Hexacopter-Multicopter

But there a wide choice of motors, speed controllers and blades that I just don't understand yet. Add battery and radio choice to that and I have a head ache!

I have contacted a dealer here in Yorkshire, but so far they haven't replied which doesn't fill me with confidence.

Cheers

Cris

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#359163 - 14/07/2013 16:30 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: Cris]
pca
old hand

Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
Sorry in advance about the length of this post, but it's a complex subject with a lot of pitfalls, and I know it rather well. If you want any more information feel free to PM me and I'll tell you anything you want.

I have built and flown a number of smaller multicopters, and done some aerial photography with them quite successfully. That said, there are a number of things you need to know, as there are some significant problems with this, mostly legal.

In the UK, remotely piloted aircraft under 150kg are, or were, classed as model aircraft. There is a specific set of regulations around RC model aircraft, which was updated in 2010 in a way that makes this sort of thing much more difficult to do.

Before that point, there were essentially 3 classes of model aircraft based on total weight, not including fuel. This is ignoring niceties such as power source, fixed vs rotary wing, and the like. Models up to 7kg all up weight could be flown anywhere with permission of the landowner, and had no altitude limit, except in controlled airspace, unless with the permission of the controller of that airspace. IE, air traffic control at an airport. In controlled airspace the limit was 400ft AGL. The controlled airspace in question would normally not be at an actual airport, but more likely in the immediate area of one, such as on the landing approach. Uually you'd avoid such locations like the plague anyway.

Models above 7kg AUW, but under 20kg AUW, had a 400ft altitude limit everywhere, except in controlled airspace with permission, etc, or unless the area you were flying had a CAA exemption. One of my local clubs has this sort of thing for large jets, which can fly up to 1500ft AGL.

Models above 20kg AUW, but under 150kg, had the same limitations, but also require a flight plan to be filed.

A large hexcopter with a good DSLR and enough batteries to give a sensible flight time can easily exceed the 7kg point.

Recreational use of model aircraft fitted with cameras was, and still is, completely legal. Commercial use was much more involved, as you required commercial aerial photography insurance, which was difficult to get until a few years ago. Eventually, it became fairly straightforward, and in theory you could approach the company that underwrote the BMFA recreational insurance and get commercial aerial photography cover, which was around £200 per year. You needed to give them some risk assessment stuff, a business plan, and so on, but in principle it was fairly easy. I was very close to doing it myself.

In 2010 the relevant rules were changed. Model aircraft were classified differently. The weight classes and altitude limits stayed the same, but now they are also classified as either a Small Unmanned Aerial System (SUAS) or a Small Unmanned Surveillance System (SUSS). An SUSS is any SUAS outfitted with sensors for collecting remote data, which includes any form of camera.

Recreational use of SUSS types is still pretty much the same, but they doubled the minimum distances you're legally allowed to fly adjacent to someone not directly involved in the flight. Commercial use of an SUSS, however, has become nearly impossible.

The details may have changed a little since I last checked about a year ago, but basically you had to get trained by a CAA-certified instruction company (of which there were none at the time) on each specific aircraft that you were going to use. The aircraft themselves had to be certified in some way, which was rather vaguely laid out. Then you had to file a flight operations schedule covering out when you were flying, where you were flying, things like that, at least two weeks in advance, and pay a fee of something like £120, each time.

It pretty much killed the commercial remote photography market overnight. I knew several companies that were doing this sort of thing and they all went out of business within a year. There still are people doing it, but as far as I can see, most if not all of them are on rather dodgy legal ground if something goes wrong.

The intent was to cut back on the problem that the CAA saw of anyone who wanted to buying a big multicopter (it was more or less aimed specifically at them), sticking a camera on it, and chucking it into the air in the middle of a city.There were a number of incidents where people with no knowledge of the rules were doing some really quite foolish things, like flying next to heathrow. Because the things are so easy to fly, especially the high end ones, which are more or less point and shoot, quite a lot of people with more money than sense were playing with them and they thought it was all going to end in tears.

Unfortunately, it was as usual a case of baby with the bathwater.

Now, knowing all that, from the actual mechanics of the thing, there are lots of options. The place to start would be working out the total payload you intend to carry, then finding a suitable platform. Duration of flight is an important metric as well. Vibration is the biggest problem, as you can't glide a multicopter smile So you always have the motors running, and unless all the props are very well balanced it will vibrate, and even when they are it's still present to a degree.

Undoubtedly the best flight controller system on the market is from Mikrocopter, although it is also one of the most expensive. You can get some amazingly cheap ones that work surprisingly well, although they're much more basic. I have one controller that was about 25 quid that works better than the first one I bought two and a half years ago that was over £300. The frames start at around a tenner if you hunt around. Motors, props, speed controllers, batteries, and the like vary from under a hundred pounds for a complete system to pretty much as high as you want to go.

At a bare minimum you would require BMFA insurance, which is about £32 per year. It gives a significant level of third party cover for aeromodelling, but as I said above only covers recreational use.

pca


Edited by pca (14/07/2013 19:28)
Edit Reason: Got the maximum weight wrong :(
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#359164 - 14/07/2013 19:58 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: pca]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Thanks smile

I used to fly a gas Heli about 10 years ago, so I was aware of how things were back then and the need for basic insurance. For the moment I am going to be doing this for recreational purposes until such a point I can figure out the legality and costs of including it in my business. There are similar grey areas and complications in the firework industry and I have found my way around most of them ok.

I think I am going to start out with this basic kit...

http://www.dji-innovations.com/product/flame-wheel-arf/

I figured they will have selected a setup that actually will fly pretty well and I'll have a base to learn from.

Lots has changed since I last looked at RC, including the move to 2.4Ghz which I don't think is too much of a problem as a cheap module change should allow me to use my old Futaba FF9 without any problems.

When it comes to flight control, do you have any recommendations? I like the idea of GPS on the higher end systems, but would just like a system that gets me in the air without too much hassle. I found the learning curve with the Heli too much, and I only just got to the point of a good hover. I don't want that to be the case with this.

Cheers

Cris

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#359166 - 15/07/2013 06:36 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
If you want a quick and very cheap way to get up to speed on gyro enabled multi rotor, then get one of these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009M...tag=normancx-21

They are really good, especially for the money.

It really is tiny, it is amazing what they cram into such a small space. It gyros work really well, making it very stable to fly.

The gyros make getting started much easier than the micro helis I was flying. You basically never have to worry about correcting with the rudder (with the micro helis basically everything you don't involves a change to the rudder input to correct, you even have to vary the input as the battery runs down). Though I suspect there are micro helis now with similar rudder gyro magic.

It has two modes, beginner and advanced. Beginner limits the speed of the inputs and restricts the bank angles. Advanced also add basic 3D functionality (it will flip if you put full collective one direction then immediately reverse it).

It copes incredibly well with even quite strong winds outside.

It is pretty rubust, with one week point. If you manage to crash it upside down you can damage one of the motors. I did this and replace the motor. I did it again and couldn't find my soldering iron during our move, so bought another X4, so now I have two of them

The rudder gyro means my basic flying skills are coming on much better. Before I could hover tail in and a bit left side in. Now I can hover left/right side in and am beginning to be able to hover nose in

I can also fly circuits, which I could never do with my helis. Of course I now have the urge to get a mid size heli.

There are some YT clips of people doing FPV with tiny cameras on this thing. I'd love to give that a go, though the costs of half decent video goggles are putting me off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsqAoELpmFQ
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#359168 - 15/07/2013 07:03 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: andy]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
I actually got my brother one of those for Christmas, amazing for the price and loads of fun too !!!

That is one of the things that got me thinking about looking into this again.

Soooooo much choice and conflicting information out there, that it is hard to figure out what to buy !!!

Cheers

Cris

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#359169 - 15/07/2013 07:12 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: andy]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5681
Loc: London, UK
Originally Posted By: andy
If you want a quick and very cheap way to get up to speed on gyro enabled multi rotor, then get one of these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009M...tag=normancx-21

... so now I have two of them


Quote:
8 Minutes Flight Time, 30 Minutes Charging Time


Looks like you need 5 of them smile
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-- roger

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#359170 - 15/07/2013 08:43 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: Roger]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
I have several batteries and two chargers wink
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#359171 - 15/07/2013 14:49 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: Cris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31569
Loc: Seattle, WA
I really enjoy my ArDrone 1.0, and the ArDrone 2.0 is even better. It's a complete package, with the smartphone/tablet app showing you (and capturing) POV video. It's a simple, turnkey solution that works out of the box, and is a fantastic starter package before you move on to the more advanced stuff like kits and such.

You can't do much with attaching external cameras, but it does pretty good with what it's got built in.



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Tony Fabris

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#359172 - 15/07/2013 16:25 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31569
Loc: Seattle, WA
Here's a cool mod of attaching a Hero camera to an ARDrone 1.0.

http://dronescapes.com/dropage31.html
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Tony Fabris

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#359174 - 15/07/2013 20:18 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: tfabris]
tanstaafl.
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5539
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"

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#359175 - 15/07/2013 20:56 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: tanstaafl.]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31569
Loc: Seattle, WA
What I want to know is how someone gets good at that sort of thing. Practicing something usually involves many failures where you drop the balls you're trying to learn how to juggle. It's a different story when you drop a helicopter...
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Tony Fabris

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#359177 - 16/07/2013 13:32 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: tanstaafl.]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: tanstaafl.

That's not flying, that's falling with style. smile

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#359178 - 16/07/2013 13:35 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: tfabris]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: tfabris
What I want to know is how someone gets good at that sort of thing. Practicing something usually involves many failures where you drop the balls you're trying to learn how to juggle. It's a different story when you drop a helicopter...

Simulation software, and a USB controller.

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#359179 - 16/07/2013 17:17 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: canuckInOR]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31569
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
That's not flying, that's falling with style.


LOL smile

Regarding the R/C simulators on the PC:

I had some friends who had those and used them for their copter practice. But what this guy did with that real copter in the video was in a whole different league. All the simulators I saw were very laggy and couldn't possibly handle the really odd physics that this pilot clearly was taking advantage of. I find it hard to believe that you could have done that particular set of aerobatics accurately in a simulator. That's just outside-the-envelope stuff that I can't imagine being accurately programmed into a simulator, let alone at that incredible speed with such split-second accuracy.

On the other hand, that was 10-15 years ago when I saw their simulators, perhaps they've improved significantly since then. I'm curious if a simulator could really do that.
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Tony Fabris

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#359180 - 16/07/2013 17:37 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: tfabris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31569
Loc: Seattle, WA
Hm. Some YouTube videos of current copter simulators are showing me that they've got the latency and frame rate issues nailed, and that aerobatics can be quite advanced and simulated in great detail.

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Tony Fabris

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#359182 - 16/07/2013 20:27 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: tfabris]
canuckInOR
carpal tunnel

Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
Yep. Here's another one, with a regular heli, rather than a quad:



Using Realflight 6.5.

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#359188 - 18/07/2013 18:34 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: andy]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3995
Loc: Manchester UK
Originally Posted By: andy
If you want a quick and very cheap way to get up to speed on gyro enabled multi rotor, then get one of these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009M...tag=normancx-21

They are really good, especially for the money.

I bought one of these on your recommendation. I managed about three goes before damaging one of the motors. But thankfully I've got a complete kit of spares on order.

It is 'so' cool! Much more fun than my gyro stabilised helicopter (which is quite fun on it's own). I could definitely see this getting out of hand financially. Although Patrick has done an excellent job of dissuading me from building a business out of it!
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Cheers,

Andy M

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#359189 - 18/07/2013 19:42 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: andym]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
The out of hand has already begun in the Matthews house hold, construction started this afternoon !!!

Starting smallish with plans for a DSLR rig once I can fly well enough.

Edit - Come round on Tuesday for a tinker and a BBQ !!!

Cheers

Cris


Edited by Cris (18/07/2013 19:43)

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#359191 - 18/07/2013 22:26 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: andy]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Originally Posted By: andy
If you want a quick and very cheap way to get up to speed on gyro enabled multi rotor, then get one of these:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B009M...tag=normancx-21

They are really good, especially for the money.


That's so inexpensive that I got one. I've been thinking to buy a multi-rotor for months. I never flew one. smile
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= Taym =
MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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#359194 - 19/07/2013 08:36 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: Taym]
LittleBlueThing
addict

Registered: 11/01/2002
Posts: 612
Loc: Reading, UK
smile me too

and thanks for the recommendation - I'd wouldn't have bought anything like this without it.
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LittleBlueThing Running twin 30's

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#359224 - 26/07/2013 05:49 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: LittleBlueThing]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Here is the footage from the first test flight with the GoPro onboard...

https://vimeo.com/71055076

These things are super simple to fly! It even brings itself home and lands!

I need some sort of FPV OSD so I can tell how high I am as you loose the ability to tell pretty quickly!

Lots of fine tuning to do, and I would love to get a DSLR or the NEX on this one day soon !!!

I got 8 minutes of flight time out of the 5000mah battery, which I am actually pretty pleased with.

Cheers

Cris

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#359232 - 26/07/2013 15:41 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: Cris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31569
Loc: Seattle, WA
Very nice!

FPV OSD is the main selling point of the Parrot ARDrone of course.

Question:

You were taking off from a circular paved area which is neatly fenced-in with a little waist-high fence and a gate. It's the first time I've seen an area like that, and I wonder if that's an English thing that we just don't have here in the USA. What is that area's normal purpose? Because it *looks* like it was tailor-made to be a multi-rotor takeoff/landing site. smile
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Tony Fabris

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#359233 - 26/07/2013 15:42 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: Cris]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31569
Loc: Seattle, WA
Oh also: Don't the newer GoPro units come with live Wifi remote monitoring? That could be your FPV OSD.
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Tony Fabris

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#359235 - 26/07/2013 16:31 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: tfabris]
JBjorgen
carpal tunnel

Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3583
Loc: Columbus, OH
Amazon's Deal of the day:

AR.Drone 2.0
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~ John

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#359243 - 26/07/2013 20:08 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: JBjorgen]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
It's actually supposed to be a children's play area, but due to ongoing disputes between the developer, the local council and residents it has so far not been finished (9 years and waiting!)

I have a 5.8Ghz downlink working to a monitor at the moment, but it is missing flight data such as altitude etc... There are lots of off the shelf products that do this now, very similar to what Patrick showed us all almost 10 years ago now! I just need to pick one that works for me.

Cheers

Cris

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#359260 - 29/07/2013 16:33 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: Cris]
andy
carpal tunnel

Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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#359261 - 29/07/2013 17:46 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: andy]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31569
Loc: Seattle, WA
Amazingly impressive. Gonna tweet that one.
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Tony Fabris

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#359263 - 30/07/2013 05:08 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: andy]
Taym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/06/2001
Posts: 2504
Loc: Roma, Italy
Originally Posted By: andy


That's a fantastic TED talk (as always?!) in my fav list forever. laugh
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MK2a #040103216 * 100Gb *All/Colors* Radio * 3.0a11 * Hijack = taympeg

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#359268 - 30/07/2013 20:45 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: andy]
Dignan
carpal tunnel

Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12318
Loc: Sterling, VA
Originally Posted By: andy

So cool!
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Matt

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#359269 - 30/07/2013 21:08 Re: Multi-rotor Craft - Anyone have experience ??? [Re: Dignan]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31569
Loc: Seattle, WA

So much of what they were doing required multiple high resolution cameras, to be able to track the craft's aboslute position in three dimensions. Meaning that most of those stunts could only be done in a room specially built for that purpose. I wouldn't be surprised if they also had to make sure the room was without any breeze or draft, so that wind couldn't affect the behavior either.

What would make a demo like that a lot more impressive is if copters could do those stunts outdoors, in weather, without needing a set of remote cameras to tell them where they are. Maybe someday there could be internal sensors in those kinds of copters that would have enough detail to do that.
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Tony Fabris

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