When I met tanstaafl in Fairbanks back in February he mentioned that I was missing an interesting thread on the BBS about gay marriage. I never managed to backtrack and read it and it sounds like maybe some of the same turf is being covered here. Good. I think it is worth it. Oh, and whatever my notions of separating marriage from civil law...I am not holding my breath. Changes like that would move at a glacial pace. My ashes will have been sprinkled over the stage at the downtown Deja Vu by the time marriage has been extricated from legal statutes.

Jeff: I'm guessing that my beliefs are highly offensive to you (they would be if I were in your shoes)

The civility with which deep disagreements are expressed is something that continues to set this BBS apart. I may be one of the least polite folks here in that regard, but it is gratifying to see others express themselves so calmly.

Jeff, I will challenge you in a moment, but I suppose I should insert the usual qualifiers first. I think that there are people whose sexual affinity is weak, indeterminate and/or negotiable. I'll admit that there are maybe a few folks who repented of being homosexual, forced themselves back to straightness, and who are happy and back where they belong (you may imply from my phrasing that I am guessing that there are a lot of these converts who are unhappy and repressed).

While I have since converted to a practiceing Isexual, I can say that I *knew* that I was a heterosexual by about the age of 10. No question.

Jeff: I don't think it's right that a gay couple should not receive benifits because they made a choice. The choice, I believe, is an unhealthy one, but that doesn't need to be augmented by the state.

What you write here, with respect to "choice" sounds very, very familiar. I hope it is not insulting to say it sounds like a "party line" but it really does.

I can't say "some of my best friends are gay" because as it happens that isn't the case. I do know a hell of a lot of gay people and have worked and continue to work with many...and I guess I have paid attention to what non-heterosexual folks have to say about their situation. Anyhow, this notion of "made a choice" just flys in the face of reality. When Jim was figuring out that he liked girls at age 11, his classmate Charlie (not his real name) was figuring out in the strongest terms that he liked boys a *lot* better. Frankly, when bazillions of people like Charlie say "I knew I was gay at age 11" and the response is "no, you made a choice and a choice that is unhealthy", I think that is very disrespectful to Charlie and no amount of "but we care about you" really erases that.

Good grief I don't know why I am the one making this point when there are probably folks much more qualified to so, but....

Jeff, I *strongly* challenge you to reexamine this notion of "made a choice" -- take some active steps to examine its validity. What to do? March into gay bars in San Antonio? Interview patrons? Maybe this challenge is insulting in and of itself. Maybe you have done all that, but what you suggest in the notion of "choice" just doesn't square with any reality I have encountered.

'Course my reality...well.....